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Old 10-02-2020, 08:30 PM   #1
OddGamer
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Default GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

Obviously I'm running a sci-fi/fantasy mix where high tech has met magic. The problem came up when my player wanted to use the spell Stop Power against a robot. Seems reasonable, and that would certainly shut it down (for as long as the spell is maintained). So... look into it... there's no resistance roll to this thing! Now I don't mind it against a purely 'non-sentient robot', which was the case in question, but... um... well, what about android characters? Or, worse, cyborgs!? In the former case it means a way to knock out a character that is completely assured (as long as a simple skill roll is made), and in the latter case it could be instantaneous death to such a character! This, quite clearly, would be rather unacceptable in a sci-fi/fantasy setting where both sentient bots (androids) and cyborgs are actually a thing!
My solution, for now, is to give any android or otherwise sentient being for whom a piece of tech is integral to what they are (so cyborgs count, but not someone wearing a jet-pack) an HT resistance roll just like Total Paralysis. My questions here are a) does this seem reasonable, and b) should this be an official change?
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:42 PM   #2
Ejidoth
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddGamer View Post
Obviously I'm running a sci-fi/fantasy mix where high tech has met magic. The problem came up when my player wanted to use the spell Stop Power against a robot. Seems reasonable, and that would certainly shut it down (for as long as the spell is maintained). So... look into it... there's no resistance roll to this thing! Now I don't mind it against a purely 'non-sentient robot', which was the case in question, but... um... well, what about android characters? Or, worse, cyborgs!? In the former case it means a way to knock out a character that is completely assured (as long as a simple skill roll is made), and in the latter case it could be instantaneous death to such a character! This, quite clearly, would be rather unacceptable in a sci-fi/fantasy setting where both sentient bots (androids) and cyborgs are actually a thing!
My solution, for now, is to give any android or otherwise sentient being for whom a piece of tech is integral to what they are (so cyborgs count, but not someone wearing a jet-pack) an HT resistance roll just like Total Paralysis. My questions here are a) does this seem reasonable, and b) should this be an official change?
As a rule of thumb, if you'd have to build it as an Affliction if you were using advantages instead of spells, and players find a way to weaponize it, it's probably a good idea to let the spell have a resistance roll. HT for physical effects and Will for mental ones is traditional, of course.
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Old 10-03-2020, 04:47 AM   #3
Varyon
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

A resistance roll seems appropriate, yes. As for obligate cyborgs (that is, those who would die if shut down), I’d imagine the relevant augmentations are designed to work around such a weakness, perhaps by making use of blood glucose and/or ATP or similar (this is actually the default for many of the cybernetic augmentations in GURPS IIRC, which is why they typically don’t require power cells and the like). At least, assuming magic is a known factor.
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Old 10-03-2020, 07:16 AM   #4
Plane
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

A lack of resistance roll to changes always sounds wrong based on what we know of Affliction.

It doesn't bother me in the case of non-sentients (IQ 0) since I could just assume it's resisted by IQ and attributes under 3 can never generate a MoS (at best IQ 2 produces MoF as low as 1 with a 3) and lose all Quick Contests that require the attacker's roll to succeed since that will always have a MoS (minimum 0) or it wouldn't even bother going to next step.

Healing might be the one exception since it has no inherent roll. I dunno maybe that's like Affliction 100 where we can just assume there's a crazy built-in penalty that makes it pointless to think of resistance.

If Reliable +1 is +5% then making "Hard to Resist -1" +5% too doesn't sound off balance. It matches "Easy to Resist +1" being -5%.
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Old 10-03-2020, 10:30 AM   #5
William
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

Yep, asked this myself earlier.

Do Machine creatures get a resistance roll against Stop Power?

Consensus answer seemed to be "yes," on the grounds of: "Well, if I were playing a Machine-template creature, I would certainly hope I got one."

An alternative implication was that a machine-template creature might not even be a legitimate target, but could be addressed by Body Control spells instead.

A third option would be that there would be a magical dividing line based on some notion of "sufficiently sentient," with the spell shutting down basic 'bots but being resisted by AIs.
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Old 10-04-2020, 11:55 AM   #6
Prince Charon
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

I would say that it depends on the GM, and how the GM wants the setting to work.

"Does-this-un-it-have-a-soul?"

If souls provide some resistance to magic (which makes sense), then beings with souls who would be vulnerable to Stop Power should get resistance rolls. Then you just need to decide at what level AIs get souls, if they do at all (I'd say that at least SAIs do, but not every GM would agree).
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Old 10-04-2020, 02:46 PM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
I would say that it depends on the GM, and how the GM wants the setting to work.

"Does-this-un-it-have-a-soul?"

If souls provide some resistance to magic (which makes sense), then beings with souls who would be vulnerable to Stop Power should get resistance rolls. Then you just need to decide at what level AIs get souls, if they do at all (I'd say that at least SAIs do, but not every GM would agree).
One point of comparison we could make is which of the tech spells have published sorcery conversions.

M179 "Preserve Fuel" is normally not resisted. It includes "wood does not rot" which sounds like it could be pretty useful for a tree, although it tends to be dead trees that rot, not live ones...

TS25 stats this as an Affliction, it appears there is a HT roll to resist being given the Unaging advantage.

I'm actually really confused here because "Casting Roll: Will" sounds a lot like Malediction but I don't see that enhancement, maybe they forgot to add it in? Pg 12 is sort of vague about how it's reached.... and this has "Range: 100 yards" so it doesn't sound like it'd be a Malediction since that would remove range entirely.

The end note also perplexes me:
The DR subtracting from the casting roll rather than forcing a resistance roll (as for Buff spells) is a special effect.
DR counting doesn't sound like Malediction so I thought maybe 'Weaponized'. That's at best -80% though, so on top of malediction 1 +100% you're still looking at +20% to turn a normal affliction into a 'Weaponized Malediction Affliction'

In the case of WMAs, where the DR applies matters a lot more since it's NOT a quick contest. DR adding to the HT resist is way different than DR subtracting from the roll to cast (default is DX-based Innate Attack skill).

This is the ONLY spell in Sorcery with Casting Roll: Will that does not have Ranged: Unlimited aside from Cancel Spells (S20 has "self" by merit of 'own spells only' accessibility for Neutralize Magic, normally touch-only)

Pg 21's Dispel Magic and Remove Curse are the only among the ranged: unlimited ones lacking Malediction 2 because we know that putting Ranged +40% on a touch-based malediction upgrades it to the equivalent of Malediction 2.

- - -

Another point of comparison is S20's Disintegrate: objects get HT+SM to resist the Destruction +300% enhancement (alternative to Heart Attack "break rather than suffering mortal conditions")

M120's approach wasn't resisted, like Shatter (M116) it just rolled damage which I assume would operate like "All or Nothing" limitation.

Not really sure why the affliction approach was taken in sorcery... it basically makes HP not matter at all, just HT+SM. Certainly a new interpretation I guess.

Heart Attack / Destruction actually sounds more like what Shatter ought to do: just break the subject. Heart Attack doesn't stop a resurrection. I think that's why 'Cosmic, Object disintegrates if destroyed, +50%;" is there, that'd be the prime difference between Shatter and Disintegrate. I'm guessing you could upgrade Heart Attacks to disintegrate corpses this way too.

- -

Getting back to Preserve Fuel though, looking at Buff spells... as explained on page 9 they seem like they OUGHT to use the "Beneficial Affliction" rules on http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/p...fflictions.pdf where duration is margin of success...
Although P40 never says so explicitly (doesn't mention DR), "reverse the sign of the HT modifier" likely means that DR now gives a penalty to the HT roll.
S9 doesn't do this though, DR is still a penalty on the HT roll. Since they all use 'fixed duration' the influence of DR on the margin wouldn't matter, of course.

The distinction of buff spells from standard Affliction mechanics seems to be:
1) benefit: subject not forced to fail a HT roll to benefit from the buff unless they are have DR or magic resistance'
2) drawback: requires subject consent
The 'building' explanation:
A willing subject can waive his HT roll, but because the attack lacks Cosmic or Malediction, DR does apply, hence the detailed rules above.
S40 introduced "If such an Affliction has Malediction, the subject can waive his right
to resist". I used to think this was only if Malediction was opposed by Will (something special about targeting that allows it to operate as Will 0 if consenting) but that was presumptuous, it seems like that would still apply if it targeted HT or any other attribute.

The key thing being "can waive" means "must be willing to waive" which seems like it has some level of sentience (IQ1+) to it?

Unless we just assume stuff with IQ 0 just waives by default against all Maledictions, but not the resistance rolls against non-Malediction afflictions?

B154 Slave Mentality automatically fails will rolls to resist social influences, so maybe you could just have a mage 'convince' most machines to waive their HT/DX rolls vs malediction?

B15 forbids non-sentient (IQ 0) creatures from having 'purely mental traits' though, so that's kind of off the table. I think you would need to afflict +1 to IQ (+200% enhancement on Affliction!) to give them limited sentience so that they COULD fail the will roll.

IQ +1 [20] could be required to [4] with -80% in net modifiers though. So we'd need an extra -50% on top of Temporary Slave Mentality -40% and Switchable +10%. I think that could be Cannot Learn -30% (B125) and Bestial -10% (B124) and Amnesia -10% (B123). So this would lower it down to just a +40% enhancement on Affliction when you're wanting to target non-sentient stuff and give it a slavish will so that it will obey you and not resist future afflictions.

Effectively this is a 'prep'. You could even make it a pseudo-Followup with other afflictions, where the 2nd only hits if the 1st succeeds. An example of this is seen in H12 Horrifying Window: instead of Followup (which is about 2nd attack taking effect if 1st penetrates DR, not applicale to things like Affliction which don't have damage) you use "Trigger, Afflicted Disadvantage".

In this case the trigger of Affliction: Unconsciousness being the +50% Hallucinating is worth -40%. Not sure how that would fluctuate if you wanted it to be "Trigger, Afflicted Advantage" instead.
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Old 10-04-2020, 03:25 PM   #8
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

Quote:
Originally Posted by OddGamer View Post
Obviously I'm running a sci-fi/fantasy mix where high tech has met magic. The problem came up when my player wanted to use the spell Stop Power against a robot. Seems reasonable, and that would certainly shut it down (for as long as the spell is maintained). So... look into it... there's no resistance roll to this thing! Now I don't mind it against a purely 'non-sentient robot', which was the case in question, but... um... well, what about android characters? Or, worse, cyborgs!?
Do they have the Electrical disadvantage? No resistance roll for you! They have "unshielded electronics". Whereas a robot that doesn't have the disadvantage, represent something that is hardened against power surges and the like and therefore has a resistance roll based on HT.
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Old 10-04-2020, 07:45 PM   #9
Plane
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

one thing I only just noticed (via powers pointing out the difference when I looked earlier today) is that the "targets can always resist" policy we're accustomed to with Afflictions isn't even a thing with standard magic, because "Resistible" spells actually can't be resisted if the caster gets a critical success...

That's one aspect I don't think Sorcery attempted to emulate, since it's basically explicitly illegal.

Suddenly "Wild Mana" is very scary...

Seems like having good attributes ain't so great against magic, you need to get screens like Magic Resistance which subtract from the initial skill roll instead, because in a world where all successes are critical successes, the only way to resist is have them (crit) fail
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Old 10-05-2020, 05:06 AM   #10
Rupert
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Stop Power vs Androids/Cyborgs

Magic says that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by M175
Machine spells are intended for use on machines without sapience or free will; as a rule, they should not affect any being that would ordinarily be built as a character. They should affect most machines with IQ 5 or less, and some machines with the Automaton meta-trait. AIs and other sapient machines should be controlled with Communication and Empathy or Mind Control spells (though the GM may wish to assess a -4 penalty for controlling an “alien” mind). At the GM’s discretion, the more physical Machine spells, like Glitch or Malfunction, may work on sapient machines.
The example physical spell, Glitch, has a resistance roll against HT, so allowing tech spells with HT resists to attack sapient machines probably makes sense. For spells like Stop Power, I'd ask myself how I'd make an effect called 'Stop Life' that suspended all biological functions within it's area work - would that have a resistance check of some sort? I think probably 'Yes', and so Stop Power should too.

Stop Impulse, from Death Spells works like Stop Power, but on living begins' nerve impulses, and allows a resistance roll. I think that's a good enough precedent, should you need one.
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