Price list for TL3-4 commodities?

[Kaspar]

I am running a 17th century Caribbean pirates campaign, and could use a full list on what various trade goods and commodities cost. Something self consistent and plausible sounding is first priority, historical accuracy second.

Does anyone here know any good sources? Maybe some historical list of ‘here’s what the prices where in London in year 1700’.

Swashbucklers (3rd edition) provided some numbers for converting contemporary English and Spanish currencies to G$:

The Spanish dollar, also known as the piece of eight or silver peso, is a silver coin of approximately 38 mm (1.5 in) diameter worth eight Spanish reales. It was widely used as the first international currency because of its uniformity in standard and milling characteristics.
1 peso = 20 Gurps $.

GURPS $4 = 1d (or one British penny). GURPS $1 is about one farthing (four farthings to a penny).

[lugaid]

"Medieval Sea Trade" in Pyramid 3/87 Low-Tech III has a Cargo Table that should be what you're looking for. There's also a lot of stuff in Low-Tech Companion 3 - Daily Life and Economics that you're likely to find useful.

[bocephus]

I feel like 1700s is well outside of TL3 but here is a great resource that I fall back on regularly for my pre-renaissance games (please credit to the author Mike Cubbin, and his website)

http://saduria.co.uk/saduria_gamewor...TheMarketplace

Its more geared to a European setting, but it gives some great 'Goods and Services' lists with a lot of consistency in pricing.

The Low-tech series has a lot to say about goods and services, but not a simple "here's a price list", it might help you figure out how to price things that are based on NPC skill sets (if you have a PC wanting to commission a weapon or the like).

[RGTraynor]

One caution is that "here are the prices in London" is close to inapplicable to the Caribbean. The mercantilist policies of England made it illegal in many colonial jurisdictions to make things, as opposed to producing raw materials -- for that, they were dependent on imported English sources, at large markups.

Originally Posted by bocephus

http://saduria.co.uk/saduria_gamewor...TheMarketplace

Its more geared to a European setting, but it gives some great 'Goods and Services' lists with a lot of consistency in pricing.

I agree that Cubbin put together a pretty document that's easy to read, but there are a great many errors (crossbows have longer range than bows? diamonds are only ten times as valuable as semi-precious stones?), and he seems to have just plucked a bunch of numbers and weights out of thin air.

[hal]

You may want to pick up a copy (PDF copy that is) of:

Privateers & Pirates by FJ Gaming

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...rs-and-Pirates

Here is a small sample of their price list:

2d (tuppence): Enough gin to get dead drunk on "Drunk
for a penny, dead drunk for tuppence" A pound of meat. A
whole chicken. A night in a dormitory with up to twenty
others (dry, but watch your belongings).
3d (threepence): Supper of bread, cheese and beer,
Cost of blood-letting for a poor person, Cost of postage of
a one-page letter going 80 miles (paid for by recipient).
Gallery seat at the theatre.
4d (fourpence): A quart of beer, A boat across the river.
A pound of butter or a dozen eggs.
4d–6d: A pound of cheese (domestic).
5d: A pound of hair powder.
6d (sixpence): A barber's fee for a shave and dressing of
one's wig, Cost of sweeping one chimney.

The prices listed above are from 1750 or thereabouts.

At RAPIER'S POINT is geared up for the 1650's or thereabouts. That was put out by IRON CROWN ENTERPRISES in its day as a papberback, but can be purchased as a PDF from Drivethru

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...-Rapiers-Point

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by lugaid

"Medieval Sea Trade" in Pyramid 3/87 Low-Tech III has a Cargo Table that should be what you're looking for.

Indeed. Said table has 36 entries (you can roll 1d twice to determine cargo randomly; note you could also use this table to stock a merchant ship the PC's are plundering - just keep rolling until you have the ship more-or-less fully stocked, or give the ship a budget and keep rolling until its either full or the budget is expended), many of which are categories rather than specific goods - salted meats, livestock, precious gems, and arms/armor, rather than salted pork, cattle, rubies, and broadswords, respectively. Many entries (including, conveniently, the four examples I listed) have a chance to be Fine - smaller lot sizes (so less cargo space) but higher value.

It also has a lot of quick and useful rules on trading. The table lists the average price for goods, and a 3d roll (with appropriate modifiers - a Notable Export for an area takes a penalty, indicating lower average cost, while a Desired Import gets a bonus, for higher average cost) gives you the actual price (ranging from 30% to 180%), and you can gamble on a contest of Merchant (or Streetwise, for illegal goods) to shift this a bit in your favor (failure shifts it against you).

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

I agree that Cubbin put together a pretty document that's easy to read, but there are a great many errors (crossbows have longer range than bows? diamonds are only ten times as valuable as semi-precious stones?), and he seems to have just plucked a bunch of numbers and weights out of thin air.

Admittedly I never used it for anything weapons or armor which is covered in great detail all through GURPS books/supplements

In point of fact I don't use his currency either. (IMO non-decimal currencies are for other GMs). What I like is the list of day to day items, rooms, stabling, etc...

Also dont forget this is a list with a pseudo realistic 'medieval' time frame in mind, where diamonds couldn't really be cut. So semi precious stones were worth more relative to diamonds because they could be shaped and polished. Or maybe better to say Diamonds were worth less because you couldn't do a great deal with them till 14th or 15th century. They were just rare.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by hal

Privateers & Pirates by FJ Gaming

(...)
At RAPIER'S POINT is geared up for the 1650's or thereabouts. That was put out by IRON CROWN ENTERPRISES in its day as a papberback, but can be purchased as a PDF from Drivethru

This, I think, is the kind of thing you want, and sadly not, for the most part, GURPS books. We don't have a great book on that yet, or at least not one focused on early modern commerce. Trade goods in the 1600s are going to look a lot different from goods appearing earlier because of the Colombian Exchange and related technological developments. Medieval/TL3 lists aren't going to include things like tobacco, chilies, allspice, and rum.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

crossbows have longer range than bows?

A bow and crossbow of equal power (GURPS damage) should have comparable ranges. I think crossbows were typically more powerful than bows, so a longer range would make sense.

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

diamonds are only ten times as valuable as semi-precious stones?

Diamonds being extremely valuable is more of a modern thing, really (and largely due to a monopoly that hypes up their product, while restricting how much is available on the market to keep the price high). In ancient times, a piece of quartz could sell for more than a diamond, provided the quartz looked better. While I doubt they were overly concerned with historical accuracy, given the subject matter, the authors of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 8: Treasure Tables opted to indeed have diamonds be the most expensive gems, with a V (value multiplier in the equation) of $40, but seeing as quartz has a V of $15, and even agate has a V of $5, diamonds aren't massively more expensive than semi-precious stones. Honestly, I suspect that's probably more historically accurate for a setting where De Beers hasn't had its way with the diamond market yet.


Of course, all that said, I have no idea how appropriate Cubbins' list is, it's just that your two examples of errors... don't seem very off to me.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Varyon

While I doubt they were overly concerned with historical accuracy, given the subject matter, the authors of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 8: Treasure Tables

Author, singular, but you're damn right on that point. The goal was to establish levels of relative glamor, not to reflect real-world pricing for anything. Moreover...

Originally Posted by Varyon

Honestly, I suspect that's probably more historically accurate for a setting where De Beers hasn't had its way with the diamond market yet.

...this, times multiple other sets of market conditions. I'd note (as we point out in GURPS Low Tech, p. 39) that prices are socially constructed. In many cases historically, the precise type of mineral a gemstone was had little to do with its price. If, say, red is an auspicious color, red gems will fetch higher prices than other gems and different kinds of red gems will sell for much the same price, regardless of absolute geological rarity.