Does GURPS need original-setting world books?

[enpeze]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Competing with WoW and D&D in their own niches does not seem to be a valid strategy. SJGames has neither the resources nor inclination to charge into a market so saturated with goods designed especially for it.


There is no evidence of it fading out.

Hot dogs outsell sopressata on a US national and worldwide basis. It does not follow that all makers of traditional sopressata should immediately seek to make their product more similar to hot dogs in order to compete for hot dog customers.

Maybe someone knows the actual sales number of the last Gurps hc-books? I dont think they have been overwhelming. If the system would be good selling they would release more material for it. And instead of thinking how to improve sales again they just cater a small minority of fans each year with one or two rule books. (does in english language something like "cooking-on-low-flame" exist?)

BTW: do you really want to compare gurps with an italian sausage? :)

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Collective_Restraint

Anyways, what I want to say is that I find the debate futile. Why can't it be both

I agree whole heartly. I don't understand why some just don't "get" it. Nobody has said that GURPS isn't a toolkit. Quite the opposite in fact most say that GURPS is a GREAT toolkit. A such this "toolkit" RPG can but used positively to draw in players of the world most popular RPG without effecting the rest of the line. Correction it would effect the rest of the line but positively by drawing in new players.

Originally Posted by Collective_Restraint

I know that the first argument against this is going to be limited ressources of SJ Games. True, but problem is, creating a setting would probably be work a few authors would be interested participating in if it wouldn't be on the off limits list.

I feel that in some ways the GURPS line is stuck in a rut. It doesn't have to be a full Banestorm setting. Just something like GURPS Magic that has a implicit set of assumption about it's fantasy world. The "setting" would be like 200 miles by 100 miles. Large enough to hold three or four related adventures.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by enpeze

Maybe someone knows the actual sales number of the last Gurps hc-books? I dont think they have been overwhelming.

They have been positive. I don't know what your benchmark for overwhelming is, but the sales have met expectations.

Originally Posted by enpeze

If the system would be good selling they would release more material for it.

Are you familiar with the concept of opportunity costs? In order to release more GURPS material, SJ Games would have to reduce the pace of other releases which are currently more profitable to the company. That doesn't mean that GURPS books don't sell, it just means that other things that are easier to produce currently sell better.

Originally Posted by enpeze

And instead of thinking how to improve sales again they just cater a small minority of fans each year with one or two rule books. (does in english language something like "cooking-on-low-flame" exist?)

The number of writers and editors available to SJGames who meet their high standards is extremely limited. These people are also often involved in other projects aside from working on GURPS, by inclination and necessity. That is the biggest bottleneck as regards GURPS book releases and there are no easy fixes in sight.

Originally Posted by enpeze

BTW: do you really want to compare gurps with an italian sausage? :)

Why not? I like sopressata.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by enpeze

Maybe someone knows the actual sales number of the last Gurps hc-books?

Nobody but the SJ Games people themselves, and since it's proprietary information, they aren't talking.

However, what we have been told lately is this: Yes, sales of GURPS hardcover books are down. However, according to what they hear from retailers and other game companies, the sales of other publishers are down more. In a tough market, SJ Games is doing better than average.

[enpeze]

Originally Posted by Icelander

They have been positive. I don't know what your benchmark for overwhelming is, but the sales have met expectations.

Really? Why do you think this? I think that the numbers are mediocre at best. They are so small that they force the company to produce one munchkin set after the other just to stay alive.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Are you familiar with the concept of opportunity costs? In order to release more GURPS material, SJ Games would have to reduce the pace of other releases which are currently more profitable to the company. That doesn't mean that GURPS books don't sell, it just means that other things that are easier to produce currently sell better.

There is a reason why Gurps dont sell better than it does now. There is a reason why Exalted sells better and D&D and even some third party suppliers of D20. I am sure there a a dozen other companies which sell more of their rpg stuff than SJG does. And this despite Gurps is theoretically a better rule system than most of those mentioned. So we have a disparity of very good quality but lacking sales numbers. Again this is IMO because SJG is selling a Lamborghini and telling the customer: "so now you have to construct your highway by yourself".

Originally Posted by Icelander

The number of writers and editors available to SJGames who meet their high standards is extremely limited. These people are also often involved in other projects aside from working on GURPS, by inclination and necessity. That is the biggest bottleneck as regards GURPS book releases and there are no easy fixes in sight.

Sorry, but I dont buy this. Reading many high quality rpg books by myself every year I dont have the impression that the industry is lacking them. If SJG thinks that there are no quality editors and writers in the industry except those who are already working for them maybe they have too high elite standards.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Competing with WoW and D&D in their own niches does not seem to be a valid strategy. SJGames has neither the resources nor inclination to charge into a market so saturated with goods designed especially for it.

This is a crap argument. The point isn't to compete with D&D but to attract players from D&D. There going to be a percentage of D&D players that grow bored with the current edition.

Right now there is a huge body of ****** off 3rd edition players. A percentage them are going to be looking at alternative systems. GURPS compared to other third party RPG system is not in a competitive position to attract those players as it takes too much work to get going with the Core Rule books.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Hot dogs outsell sopressata on a US national and worldwide basis. It does not follow that all makers of traditional sopressata should immediately seek to make their product more similar to hot dogs in order to compete for hot dog customers.

[Customer looking at menu for the Sopressata vender]
Customer: Marshmallow?

Vendor: Yeah everyone asking for Marshmallow as a topping

Customer: But isn't that what the most popular thing for hot dogs

Vendor: Sure, I guess it why people are asking for it here.

Customer: But that not a Sopressata topping! It would ruin the taste!

[Vendor shrugs and points at the sign]
Vendor: Then don't order it. All the other topping are available including your favorite mustard.

Customer: I don't know everybody who is going to be wanting Marshmallow for a topping.

Vendor: It what people ask me and beside you come in the late afternoon. The morning crowd is completely different and they are all asking for Marshmallows. Plus I got a few of Mario, the hot dog vendor, to try my Sopressata since I started offering the Marshmallow topping. I added a extra bin for the hot marshmallows and I got a few more customers as well as pleasing some of the morning crowd.

Customer: But you don't need the hot dog crowd and their marshmallow toppings.

Vendor: Look I need all the customers I can get. They ask for Marshmallow so I give them Marshmallows. So will that be the regular mustard today or the hot kind?

[enpeze]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Nobody but the SJ Games people themselves, and since it's proprietary information, they aren't talking.

However, what we have been told lately is this: Yes, sales of GURPS hardcover books are down. However, according to what they hear from retailers and other game companies, the sales of other publishers are down more. In a tough market, SJ Games is doing better than average.

Ok, I think you are well informed and thus we can say they are down. But instead figuring out new ways to bring them up, what does SJG? Nothing. They just do one or two rule-books of good quality but questionable necessity for their hardcore fangroup. Thats all.

And other sales are also down? Maybe other companies do something wrong too. Maybe they are not flexible enough to meet changing markets. I would not wonder because many of them are small companies with probably not much marketing expertise. OTOH there are some roleplaying companies which tell us that their own sales numbers are increasing from year to year because the worldwide roleplaying market grows - especially in Europe and Asia. (ask Matt Sprange from Mongoose Publishing)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by enpeze

Really? Why do you think this? I think that the numbers are mediocre at best. They are so small that they force the company to produce one munchkin set after the other just to stay alive.

Mediocre compared to what?

Compared to much larger publishers? Compared to video game sales? What are you using as your basis for comparison?

GURPS isn't selling any worse than GURPS used to be, if we adjust for the general decline in the roleplaying games book segment overall. It's doing better, in fact.

Originally Posted by enpeze

There is a reason why Gurps dont sell better than it does now. There is a reason why Exalted sells better and D&D and even some third party suppliers of D20. I am sure there a a dozen other companies which sell more of their rpg stuff than SJG does. And this despite Gurps is theoretically a better rule system than most of those mentioned. So we have a disparity of very good quality but lacking sales numbers. Again this is IMO because SJG is selling a Lamborghini and telling the customer: "so now you have to construct your highway by yourself".

I don't see much correlation between the quality of rule systems and the expected level of sales.

To use an analogy, the most popular 'news' media is rarely, if ever, the most accurate or well-researched. Let alone the best written.

In my experience, setting out to become popular requires a concerted effort to aim at the lowest common denominator. That rarely has positive effects on quality.

Originally Posted by enpeze

Sorry, but I dont buy this. Reading many high quality rpg books by myself every year I dont have the impression that the industry is lacking them. If SJG thinks that there are no quality editors and writers in the industry except those who are already working for them maybe they have too high elite standards.

Why would good writers and editors who are already working someone else work for SJ Games? SJ Games relies on freelancers, not paid staff.

That's not even getting into the fact that the roleplaying industry as a whole cannot afford to pay anyone a living wage. Anyone working there is doing so out of charity or sincere love of the subject. It's hard to predict the motives of such people.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

This is a crap argument. The point isn't to compete with D&D but to attract players from D&D. There going to be a percentage of D&D players that grow bored with the current edition.

Right now there is a huge body of ****** off 3rd edition players. A percentage them are going to be looking at alternative systems. GURPS compared to other third party RPG system is not in a competitive position to attract those players as it takes too much work to get going with the Core Rule books.

What is all this work you keep talking about? I'm not seeing it.

I've seen people try to start Exalted campaigns, D&D campaigns and a host of other games, and with everything it's the same principle. You do as much work as you feel like. You can make it real hard on yourself or you can keep it loose and easy.

In my experience, it's no harder to start GURPS campaigns than any other RPG campaigns.

In your example, you're ignoring opportunity cost. To publish a setting book, SJGames would need to divert resources from other GURPS books.

Hence:

Customer: But his isn't sopressata like you used to make! It's a cheap substitude!

Vendor: What, you think marshmallow is free?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by enpeze

They are so small that they force the company to produce one munchkin set after the other just to stay alive.

This seems to imply that Munchkin is something they shouldn't or don't want to be doing, which is a gross mischaracterization. The purpose of SJ Games is not to publish GURPS books. It's to make money by selling games. They're not "forced" to do Munchkin any more than Apple is "forced" to make iPods. It's something they do which makes them lots of money and they'd be foolish not to. The concentration on stuff that makes them more money than the always-mediocre sales of RPGs is a natural consequence of being in their business.