Judo is a striking skill

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

My post explained why it was important to read further, to the 'in particular' statement that follows that.

I may be not understanding what you meant, but doesnt Punck/Kick list skills other than DX in the weapon box? I quoted them post 1.

[Phil Masters]

That's not a DX roll, it's a skill roll with a default from DX.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That's not a DX roll, it's a skill roll with a default from DX.

Oh yeah? What skill would that be?

Brawling, Karate, Boxing etc explicitly have no DX default.

Please find us the skill that defaults to DX to punch and DX-2 to kick.

[Anders]

It's a skill-less default. The same as saying "solving this puzzle requires an IQ roll" or "resisting this gas is a HT-4 roll".

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Correct, it is the question of rules. I do not want to judge whether it was Kromm's intent or not until he or somebody else from GURPS team says so.

Do a search. I know this has come up before.

It's an artifact from the 3rd edition. The Close Combat section in 3e (p.111-112) had a more enumerated list of stuff you could do than the 4e version (p.B391-392). It contained a bunch of stuff that got moved earlier in the 4e Combat chapter - particularly to the Unarmed and Grappling headers, which were not in the Basic Combat chapter in 3e at all. The intent was Judo replaces DX for DX rolls [in the Close Combat subheading]. Unfortunately it appears that the only DX rolls from that section left in the 4e Close Combat subheading are the two it specifically exempts - readying a weapon and dropping a shield. Of course the entire reason those are explicitly called out in the Judo description is they [are] in that section in 3e, while all the other things Judo undoubtably does not substitute for DX rolls for, say not falling into a pit (which is after all only an issue at "Close Combat" ranges, you don't often fall into a pit in a different hex) didn't need to be mentioned, because they weren't in that section.

I suppose you could still take the literal interpretation and limit it to only those DX rolls in the 4e Close Combat section and not exempted, which is none, and rule Judo never substitutes for DX...

[Anders]

What is more likely - that Kromm intended Judo to be a striking skill or that this is, at best, an errata?

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Please find us the skill that defaults to DX to punch and DX-2 to kick.

It's Brawling. Except that DX rolls for unarmed combat predate the rules for defaults (and quite possibly for any unarmed combat skills at all).
Since Brawling covers stuff not actually available at DX defaults - particularly that damage bonus - which is actually true of *all* defaults, but so many people refuse to understand that, I suppose it was felt that explicitly wording it as a default would hurt more than it would help, especially in these post Martial Arts 1e days when Brawling picked up more stuff that would need to be exempted from the default and people would argue about when it was.

That historical issue also hits this Judo = DX issue too, remember when that rule was written Judo was the only grappling skill in GURPS, and grappling has those DX defaults too - this substitution is actually a version of the same thing, saying you can use Judo anywhere the grappling rules that call for DX. Later written rules will usually call for "DX or grappling skill" in places the oldest rules would call for DX and slightly later rules might possibly have used "DX or Judo" but mostly didn't, depending on this substitution written into the Judo skill.

[Plane]

MrFix re your initial list, one omission I just noticed is Pummeling, which MA101 lets you roll against DX-1 to hit with weapons.

This explicitly says "reach is always C" though (not sure if being SM+10 would override that or not) which would make the omission of "Judo-1" from that list even more innocuous, were it actually intended.

Originally Posted by MrFix

The penalty is there because they are in close combat, not because of any sort of desire to help the defender.

There is definitely a 'desire to help the defender' manifest in the errata for basic set. It's basically a "let's pretend they're not in close combat in a way which benefits the defender and not the attacker because they only just entered it this second" approach.

Without that errata, reach 1 weapons could not parry attacks if the attacker stepped into close combat. Now they can, as long as that step happened in the same turn as the attack.

The errata was no surprise, as there was already something of this idea with Runaround Attack rules, where you count as attacking from the side instead of the back, so long as you didn't begin your turn in the back.

It's the same principle: favor the defender as if circumstances were as they were at the start of the turn before the attacker did anything.

Originally Posted by MrFix

Reach above C gives -4 in close combat. That's why Attacker has it, because he is in close combat.

If he wasnt in close combat, he wouldn't get the penalty.

Hence, if he gets the close combat penalty - he's in close combat.

Based on the errata, when an attacker steps into close combat, the defender doesn't count as being in close combat in terms of parrying when defending on that turn.

I think this would probably still apply even with Martial Arts giving us rules which allow long weapons to parry in close combat: those would only apply on subsequent turns after the attacker stepped in.

Allowing a defender to avoid a -2 penalty to parry is kind of similar to giving the attacker a -4 to skill if he wouldn't spent that skill on a deceptive attack.

So I'm thinking penalize the attacker in another way: make the judoka wait until he's actually started his turn in close combat before allowing this "punch with judo" idea.

Originally Posted by MrFix

using your wrong interpretation, you wouldnt be able to attack with boxing punch or knife because they're reach C - attacks that happen in Close Combat, they cannot happen outside of Close Combat without special options. In any situation that you can make a C-range Knife attack or Boxing punch, you can make Judo Punch.

C-range knife attacks can be made against the limb of an unarmed attacker on a successful parry, even if that attacker wasn't in close combat.

It would be a stronger limit for punches if we made the AOA (Long) effect more accessible. Aside from burning valuable FP on Extra Effort. Technical grappling had Committed Attack (Long) which imposed a damage (well, control point, but damage is easily subbed) penalty (similar to Defensive Attack) instead of completely crippling defence.

I'd just make it a -4 to skill technique to do a +1 reach lunge.

Originally Posted by MrFix

Kromm also excludes straight up DX punch/kick, despite it being a thing in GURPS.

I don't remember that, do you recall where you saw it? I assume you mean a "straight up DX minus 2 kick" in the 2nd case, unless you're talking about kicking at DX-0 while lying face-up on one's back.

Was this maybe part of some idea of untrained people getting to use brawling at default? Non-defaults skills getting defaults is an idea promoted with "Wizardly Dabbler" so I'm fine with it.

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

That's not a DX roll, it's a skill roll with a default from DX.

Did you maybe mean 'technique roll' ? MA75 has "Kicking" which mentions the Brawl/Karate defaults but not the DX one. Punching isn't mentioned, I think because it's a primary-use technique which can't be bought up separately from the underlying skill (much like grappling)

Originally Posted by malloyd

That historical issue also hits this Judo = DX issue too, remember when that rule was written Judo was the only grappling skill in GURPS

Fun fact: this was actually a broader issue in 3e when Wrestling was added as the 2nd grappling skill and Sumo was added as the 3rd...

Page 243 of 3e's Basic Set:

You can use your Wrestling skill to replace DX in Close Combat, just as for Judo.

Which I figure refers back to page 51:

You may also use your Judo skill, instead of your DX, in any DX roll made in Close Combat except to draw a weapon or drop a shield.

Page 35 of 3e's Martial Arts:

You can substitute Sumo Wrestling for DX in these contests, and for any other use of DX in unarmed Close Combat.

That doesn't call out Judo specifically like Wrestling did in the 3e basic set, but I think "unarmed" would clearly also rule out not only weapon-drawing and shield-dropping, but Pummeling too. Not punches though =/

Looks like Wrestling and Sumo Wrestling got nerfed in 4e since B228's and B223's description of them did not retain that note from 3e's B243/MA35...

Or maybe these Wrestling/Sum notes removed to avoid this confusion regarding punching, and they intended but forgot to remove it for Judo?

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Plane

I don't remember that, do you recall where you saw it? I assume you mean a "straight up DX minus 2 kick" in the 2nd case, unless you're talking about kicking at DX-0 while lying face-up on one's back.

You can Punch at DX or DX-2, this is not a default, it's instinctive use of the body.

It appears in Basic Set's weapon tables that I quoted in my first post.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by MrFix

You can Punch at DX or DX-2, this is not a default, it's instinctive use of the body.

It appears in Basic Set's weapon tables that I quoted in my first post.

Sorry, I should have been more specific about which part of your quote I was asking about:

Originally Posted by MrFix

Kromm also excludes straight up DX punch/kick, despite it being a thing in GURPS.

I mean do you recall where you saw Kromm saying to exclude DX-punches (I already know it's a thing in GURPS)

I remember SOMEONE proposing just ignore DX defaults and let Brawling default to DX, but I can't remember who it was.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Anybody can punch or bite at DX for thrust-1 crushing, kick at DX-2 for thrust crushing

Here in 2013 he is supporting the rule you're talking about, for example.