Advantages List: Cinematic vs Realistic

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

The fact that you'll will almost certainly be eventually found out and Unzeroed doesnt make starting with it unrealistic.

But would make it worse than useless.

Zeroed is basically a worked example of a Secret, as I understand it.

Zeroed is a advantage. Secret is a disadvantage. The writeup for zeroed is flawed in that it fails to sufficiently spell out what makes it worth something.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What you are describing isn't even remotely an advantage. What possible benefit do you think living as an undocumented person gives you?

None in most settings. Neither does Plant Empathy or Longevity. But, in campaigns were it does matter, then it's worth getting. Also, some off-the-grid character types will want this, even if they're just being overly paranoid.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Kromm has said multiple times that Zeroed keeps you scrubbed. Look how it's used in Action or Madness Dossier for examples of advantageous scrubbed identity.

From Zeroed [B100]:

You do not officially exist. Even the highest authorities in the land know nothing about you. In a fantasy setting, you are a “mysterious wanderer”; magical divination cannot discover conclusive details about your past or true identity. In a high-tech world, you don’t appear in the public records – and if computer databases exist, they contain no evidence of your existence. You must provide a reason for this; e.g., your parents hid you away at birth, you are legally dead, or you somehow managed to destroy all the records (explain how!).

To maintain this status, you must deal strictly in cash or commodities. Credit and bank accounts must be blind (keyed to pass-code, not a per- son – the “Swiss bank account”) or set up through a Temporary Identity (see p. 31).

If the authorities investigate you, they will initially assume that there has been an error. They will become increasingly concerned as no informa- tion can be found about your life. Eventually, they will attempt to apprehend you. If they can’t find you, then they’re likely to give up. But if they catch you, you are in for a thorough interrogation, possibly involving torture, mind probes, or worse. After all, a nonperson has no rights . . . and it will be very difficult for your allies to prove that you are being held, as you don’t officially exist!

I appreciate your patients with me. Based on the RAW, you definitely need to come up with in-game explanations for why and how you remain Zeroed. (I only have the first GURPS Action. It didn't extrapolate on Zeroed at all (that I could find).)

You say "zeroed keeps you scrubbed". So, if a Zeroed character is pulled over for speeding in a friend's car, by RAW, what do think should happen? I'd have the authorities detain him and process him. In a realistic setting, I'd basically say the character's Zeroed advantage is gone. In a cinematic setting, I'd be pretty lenient in allowing the character to come up with an in-game explanation for how he'll get himself re-Zeroed.

I have no problem with Advantages working differently in cinematic settings than they do in realistic settings. I.e. guidelines in the Action series are not meant to be applied universally. I'm not convinced the way Zeroed works in for an Action campaign has to be the way it works in a realistic campaign.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by SCAR

Your lists assume that any mundane (not supernatural or exotic) is either one or the other, where as they might well be a third category, or abilities which could be either - Hard to Kill and Hard to Subdue are only really realistic for 1 or 2 levels.
Several of these traits I'd put into a Metagaming category (Luck, Serendipity, etc.) as they define player/GM rules, not character rules!
In fact, your starting point seems to be defining which traits are Cinematic, and therefore the 'other list' should be non-cinematic.

Excellent advice and you can see I've taken much of it to heart.

Originally Posted by SCAR

Cinematic (but neither exotic nor supernatural) Advantages:
Double-Jointed - I've seen enough circus performers to consider this realistic
Intuition - I'd allow this as realistic

Realistic (and neither exotic nor supernatural) Advantages:
Danger Sense - realistic, really?

Double-Jointed: link me to a you-tube video of somebody whose every joint is ball-and-socket and I'll take this off the cinematic list. :)

Intuition - realistic, but Danger Sense - not realistic? Explain yourself, man.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Oh, and Captain Joy - I forgot to mention it before, but your list currently states it was last updated in 2017.

Blast! I've been found out. (Yet another reason to be Zeroed: to protect your time-traveller status. :) )

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

None in most settings. Neither does Plant Empathy

The supernatural protection from Divination aspect of Zeroed isn't realistic for obvious reasons.

or Longevity.

Living longer in good health is of obvious utility. It is also realistic.

But, in campaigns were it does matter, then it's worth getting.

Zeroed as it is supposed to work is worth getting. Zeroed as you describe it is a disadvantage (or really a bunch of disadvantages: negative Status, Secret, and Social Stigma).

Also, some off-the-grid character types will want this, even if they're just being overly paranoid.

Why? I don't see many survivalist types claiming that being a undocumented person is good thing. If it works as Kromm has explained that it does, then it is worth it. If it works like you say, it's not worth anything as it provides no actual benefit but only (pretty serious) drawbacks.

From Zeroed [B100]:

Yes, but that is badly worded and makes no sense. Which is why it needed official clarification.

Based on the RAW, you definitely need to come up with in-game explanations for why and how you remain Zeroed.

Neither uber-leet hacker cabals or magical nondetection effects are realistic, though.

(I only have the first GURPS Action. It didn't extrapolate on Zeroed at all (that I could find).)

I thought there was more in Heroes, sorry. Furious Fists has the clearly cinematic Ninja variant on p. 14.

You say "zeroed keeps you scrubbed". So, if a Zeroed character is pulled over for speeding in a friend's car, by RAW, what do think should happen?

Whatever maintains his Zeroed does whatever it does to scrub him again.

In a realistic setting, I'd basically say the character's Zeroed advantage is gone.

Where's the part when it is an Advantage?

I'm not convinced the way Zeroed works in for an Action campaign has to be the way it works in a realistic campaign.

My whole point is that Zeroed doesn't work as a realistic advantage at all.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yes, but [the RAW for Zeroed] is badly worded and makes no sense. Which is why it needed official clarification.

Say no more. If somebody would please conjure a link to Kromm's post I'll move Zeroed firmly into the cinematic camp and cite Kromm's post as justificaiton for the nay-sayers (such as I used to be).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

You say "zeroed keeps you scrubbed". So, if a Zeroed character is pulled over for speeding in a friend's car, by RAW, what do think should happen? I'd have the authorities detain him and process him. In a realistic setting, I'd basically say the character's Zeroed advantage is gone.

It never existed in the first place. After all, in order to be an Advantage, a trait must help. If it doesn't help, it's not an advantage called Zeroed. It's a Social Stigma called "Undocumented".

[namada]

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[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Say no more. If somebody would please conjure a link to Kromm's post I'll move Zeroed firmly into the cinematic camp and cite Kromm's post as justificaiton for the nay-sayers.

I've looked in the FAQ and uFAQ and can't find anything.
However there's this:

Originally Posted by Madness Dossier p. 16

Sandmen without a legal Alternate Identity are legally dead, at least according to their records. Their fake identities are one mission “burn” legends, not usable for any kind of long-term civilian existence. For those who have it, this trait represents Project resources devoted to keeping the Sandmen off the radar. For example, a Zeroed Sandman can be arrested, but once free, his biometrics quickly become disassociated from the arrest record – his slate is wiped clean.

Note that this is a normal unmodified Zeroed for 10 points. Not a variant.

(such as I used to be)

FWIW, I was confused by it too for a long time, I just never thought it was actually an advantage. I thought it was a good way to waste 10 points and I just ignored it. I am curious, how did you envision your "realistic" Zeroed actually working as an advantage?

EDIT: And now Vicky has uFAQ'd it for us. Yay, Vicky!

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

You say "zeroed keeps you scrubbed". So, if a Zeroed character is pulled over for speeding in a friend's car, by RAW, what do think should happen?

They do a routine check on your (false) license, which checks out just fine, and write you a ticket. Most likely whatever keeps you Zeroed pays the fine just because it's cheap insurance against investigation, and when you throw away the false license next month, it never matters again. They may or may not bother to remove the record - there's no real reason to, since it's linked to a license and identity you won't ever use again and can't be linked back to you. Presumably if you did something that got your fingerprints taken, those would need to be erased at some point.

And yes, most of the details of the description of Zeroed in the Basic Set are apparently wrong. As it is written there, it's a disadvantage. It's original intent is to model characters who are able to remain mysterious even in a world with universal IDs - it comes from Cyberpunk, or really more from Roger Zelanzny's proto-cyberpunk work like My Name is Legion and Coils - where the characters with in necessarily have the ability to actively modify those databases and/or generate perfectly checkable false IDs.

The advantage version not actually no data exists, it's Immunity to some method of discovering information turning up anything you don't want it to. That's why despite what you might thing from the Basic wording, it actually does make sense to take Zeroed (divination), which is probably the topic to look for to find the threads where this problem has been hashed out before.