Rider Within > Create Animal

[Henchman99942]

Can a mage use Rider Within on a Created Animal?

Plant Control says: Note that this spell makes possible the use of Rider, Rider
Within, Beast Possession, and similar spells on vegetable creatures.

But I didn't see anything on Created beings.

[Not another shrubbery]

Dunno if the Plant Control spell is really applicable here. I would think that the Animal spells only would work on "real" animals, rather than Creations, noting that neither Create Animal nor Create Mount are in the Animal College. An Illusion variation that would work on Creations might be called for.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Dunno if the Plant Control spell is really applicable here. I would think that the Animal spells only would work on "real" animals, rather than Creations, noting that neither Create Animal nor Create Mount are in the Animal College. An Illusion variation that would work on Creations might be called for.

It probably depends on what the individual GM thinks the logic behind created animals should be, so some GMs would allow it, while others wouldn't. My current thinking is 'allow it, but remember that it's an option for enemy spellcasters, too.'

[Henchman99942]

Ignore the plants.

Can a mage use Rider Within on a Created Animal?

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Henchman99942

Ignore the plants.

Can a mage use Rider Within on a Created Animal?

This is a GM decision based on their assumptions about how magic works.

Note that the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy line includes Create Animal as a Druidic spell and the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game boxed set explicitly moved the spell into the Animal college. So if your game is DF flavored, I would say that Rider Within should work with created animals.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

It probably depends on what the individual GM thinks the logic behind created animals should be, so some GMs would allow it, while others wouldn't. My current thinking is 'allow it, but remember that it's an option for enemy spellcasters, too.'

Originally Posted by Dalin

This is a GM decision based on their assumptions about how magic works.

Note that the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy line includes Create Animal as a Druidic spell and the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game boxed set explicitly moved the spell into the Animal college. So if your game is DF flavored, I would say that Rider Within should work with created animals.

Good catch on the DF College reorg. In the context of that system, the spells should probably be combinable.

Sure, GMs are free to allow such things as they see fit. The op seemed to be asking for an official ruling, which will probably require an enquiry be made to Kromm or PK. MO is mostly based off the spell organization in Magic. Frinst, (Animal) Control doesn't look like it should work on a Created animal, since Creations have their own spell specifically intended for that purpose.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

MO is mostly based off the spell organization in Magic. Frinst, (Animal) Control doesn't look like it should work on a Created animal, since Creations have their own spell specifically intended for that purpose.

Yes. I agree that this is the simplest interpretation of the spell presentation in GURPS Magic.

[Henchman99942]

Created Animals are already under the caster's control. Control Creation allows a caster to take over someone else's creation.

Rider Within is not a control spell. It is more akin to possession and is in the prereq chain for Beast Possession

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Henchman99942

Created Animals are already under the caster's control. Control Creation allows a caster to take over someone else's creation.

Rider Within is not a control spell. It is more akin to possession and is in the prereq chain for Beast Possession

Yes; I think the existence of Control Creation implies that Control Animal wouldn't work. Thus there is something about a created animal that is different in essence from a natural animal which suggests that Rider Within shouldn't work either.

Because I usually play DF flavored games, and DF has included Create Animal as an Animal spell, I would run this differently. I would rule that created animals are real animals for all intents and purposes until they cease to exist. Control Animal and Rider Within would therefore work.

[Dalin]

This raises an interesting question about the thaumaturgic status of created beings. Can someone use Charm, Enslave, or the Geas spells on a Created servant? If so, would they be resisted by the Creation or the caster of Create Servant? How would these interact with Control Creation?

Have others delved into this territory before? (I haven't used the full GURPS Magic since 3rd edition, so I may be missing some text that clarifies this.)