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Old 05-18-2022, 02:53 PM   #31
naloth
 
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
Well, the titan angle is a good point, but I didn't base my side of the argument on attacking statues, or animals, etc.

But purely on humanish character, and while I don't know how you think, I doubt you'd fear an 8 or 10 foot tall human intrinsically.
Maybe if you got spooked, but what if he went "Whoa! Sorry didn't mean to startle you! Are you okay?"

But then? Well, maybe still then.

I think this is just a disagreement on human behavior.
Perhaps, but I keep trying to point out that it's a neutral modifier because context or how you are meeting can push it either positive or negative.

On a beach, playing volleyball with a bunch of friends at my back I'd think nothing of inviting a giant (8', nice he doesn't even need to be good) to play. In a dark alley late at night all by myself, I'd would be cautious instead. In hostile situation, where fighting is expected I'd actively avoid an encounter unless I *knew* the someone half again my size was an ally.

Change that 8' person to a 3' person and my reactions would be different. The first situation would be like asking a child to play with adults. In a potentially risky scenario, I'd feel like I should be protecting someone child sized.

Relative size is a factor in how dangerous we guess a target can be.
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Old 05-18-2022, 02:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
Fame and quite likely fortune.
Unless you're too big, then possibly quite a bit of inconvenience to others/humans.

But if you were bigger, and human(ish), and without the usual drawbacks, like a shorter lifespan and all that, then you'd basically be quite superior to most people alive.
Even today.

Sure, you'd need extra accomodation, but unless you're freakishly ginormous, you'd be the star pretty much anywhere.
Children would want to ride on you. Women would wonder if they could take you. Men would probably be jealous, but they could also be inspired.
(And if you're a woman, well, I'd say that it's obvious you that you'd be popular all around, too. Gigantesses are kind of an established thing.)

As for the food: Even if you weren't somehow the talk of the town (and therefore probably well off), which you would be, food is still produced in quite the surplus 'around these parts'.
(In other words, you could probably eat all the leftover food in the supermarkets)

Smaller humanoids will never have the same regard as bigger ones. No matter how sturdy and surly and martial you can make a dwarf.

One SM higher and you can oil yourself up, walk across the beach and you'll have fawners dangling off of you pretty much guaranteed.
(Edit: Yes despite the oil :P)
And those still have quite a bit of worth in 'post revenge of the nerds' world.
If you're a little (mystically powerful) fairy girl who flutters around and casts spells then you can bet you'd get a lot of attention in a world where this is unusual. Probably much more positive reactions, and people will feel disarmed (unless you have a bad reputation/race reputation).

On the flip side some 5m giant will make others feel threatened. Nobles will feel concerned the giant might intimidate their way into a position of power, commoners will be worried the giant might lash out and harm them or extort them for their crops or goods. I doubt a giantess would get off the hook much easier since from a human(-sized) person they will look about as scary when they tower over you. The latter might also really trigger any men who have issues with powerful women, for obvious reasons, so in a chauvinistic setting a giantess might actually be a lot worse off than the giant.

If the giants were similar-looking to humans and known to take romantic interest in humans then I think that would be a big disadvantage if anything. Honestly I think fairly few women would immediately ponder if they could "take" a giant, a daring number might ponder "taming" him, but I imagine most would likely be terrified they might get sexually assaulted if the giant had such disposition. A female one might be assumed to be less dangerous, but a drunk giantess or one who aggressively makes moves on human men would probably scare away a lot more guys than it would attract. Self-preservation is generally stronger than sexual attraction, and I think a giant or giantess would have to try really hard to avoid triggering peoples' fight-or-flight responses. Just knowing the giant could pound you into the pavement without warning is like flirting with someone holding a knife in their hand. For all this is still assuming a fairly attractive giant/ess, if they aren't appealing to look at then I think human-like appearance basically just means some humans will worry about being sexually assaulted.

Anyway, I suspect leader-types would try to either manipulate the giant from a safe distance, or subtly sow seeds of distrust ("There is a rumor they make bread from grounded human bones...") to make the giant leave and failing that put as many scared pitch-fork wielding peasants between themselves and the scary giant as possible. Regular people will probably be thankful when the giant is helpful but try to avoid getting too involved when they don't see a clear benefit. Those scared of the giant will likely be all too happy to spread whatever rumors they hear.

For a much smaller giant, f.ex. a mundane human with regular Gigantism I could see it being advantageous. You're not scary enough that most leaders feel unsafe when they are surrounded by their guards, but you're scary enough that they might want to put you on a big horse to lead their armies.

Anyway, all this can of course be largely override by a strong reputation in the area. A stoic and capable Giant who is part of the king's royal guard is mostly just going to be meet with reverence of those who know of him and recognize the uniform.

If you want to quickly become popular in the new places you visits I think you're much better of as a cute and innocent-acting little fairy who likes to cast "Essential Food" or "Fool's Banquet" on random pastries. Giants are just too threatening, I think.
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Old 05-18-2022, 03:18 PM   #33
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
Or, for even more OP-ness create an SM-10 fairy with telekinetic powers.
Hell Fairy [0]
SM -10 [0]
-9 ST [-90]
+9 HP (Massless +0%) [18]
Flight (Winged -20%) [32]
Telekinesis 10 (Visible -20%) [40]

Granted, you could actually make a halfway-decent SM+0 character like that, although ST 1 would be a bit of a hard sell for someone that size (HP 10 is arguably a hard sell for a 0.05 yard - 1.8 inch - fairy, but "supernaturally durable" is a thing). But that -10 to see/hit? That's a potential game-changer.


For my own analysis of SM (or at least one of them, I tend to go back and forth on this), I decided the change to Reach, Trampling, Evasion, etc, work out to around [5] per +1 SM, [-5] per -1 SM (comparable to Stretching [6], but Always On). The change to how hard you are to see and hit is worth around [-10] per +1 SM, [10] per -1 SM (the latter is basically [5] for a "sneaky" talent and [5] for a half level of Cosmic Dodge; the former is just that reversed). The change in how poison affects you I eyeballed at [2] for +1 SM, [-2] for -1 SM. The effect on Intimidation is, as noted by Anthony in the previously-linked thread, [3] for +1 SM, [-3] for -1 SM. All that is a net Feature.

But that's not all SM does. I previously determined the change to the weight and cost of armor and clothing is worth roughly [-5] per +1 SM, [5] per -1 SM (IIRC, this is basically "how much Lifting ST (Only for Armor/Clothing -20%) do you need to negate the effect," doubled to account for the monetary cost) (EDIT: Actually, you need +5 Lifting ST (Only for Armor/Clothing -20) [12] for SM +1, +10 [24] for SM +2, +20 [48] for SM +3, -3 [-7.2] for SM -1, etc, and these need doubled for monetary cost, so it's variable and very much a hefty Disadvantage for high SM - it works out to [-5*((M*100)^(1/2)-10)], where M is the multiplier to the weight/cost of the item; I had thought this was an error when I saw +1 SM was [-25], but nope). The change to the weight and cost of rations is similarly worth around [-5] per +1 SM, [5] per -1 SM (it was actually [-3] and [5], respectively, but close enough). If you give your character weight that is appropriate for their SM, then if using Technical Grappling, the point cost here would be equal to 10 less than the ST appropriate for your character's weight ([5] for +1 SM, [20] for +3 SM, [-3] for -1 SM, etc). If not using TG, I think the grappling bonus/penalty is worth something like [2] per +1 SM, [-2] per -1 SM.

So, it's variable, but high SM is a net Disadvantage, low SM is a net Advantage.
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Old 05-18-2022, 03:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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Originally Posted by RedMattis View Post
If you're a little (mystically powerful) fairy girl who flutters around and casts spells then you can bet you'd get a lot of attention in a world where this is unusual. Probably much more positive reactions, and people will feel disarmed (unless you have a bad reputation/race reputation).

On the flip side some 5m giant will make others feel threatened. Nobles will feel concerned the giant might intimidate their way into a position of power, commoners will be worried the giant might lash out and harm them or extort them for their crops or goods. I doubt a giantess would get off the hook much easier since from a human(-sized) person they will look about as scary when they tower over you. The latter might also really trigger any men who have issues with powerful women, for obvious reasons, so in a chauvinistic setting a giantess might actually be a lot worse off than the giant.

If the giants were similar-looking to humans and known to take romantic interest in humans then I think that would be a big disadvantage if anything. Honestly I think fairly few women would immediately ponder if they could "take" a giant, a daring number might ponder "taming" him, but I imagine most would likely be terrified they might get sexually assaulted if the giant had such disposition. A female one might be assumed to be less dangerous, but a drunk giantess or one who aggressively makes moves on human men would probably scare away a lot more guys than it would attract. Self-preservation is generally stronger than sexual attraction, and I think a giant or giantess would have to try really hard to avoid triggering peoples' fight-or-flight responses. Just knowing the giant could pound you into the pavement without warning is like flirting with someone holding a knife in their hand. For all this is still assuming a fairly attractive giant/ess, if they aren't appealing to look at then I think human-like appearance basically just means some humans will worry about being sexually assaulted.

Anyway, I suspect leader-types would try to either manipulate the giant from a safe distance, or subtly sow seeds of distrust ("There is a rumor they make bread from grounded human bones...") to make the giant leave and failing that put as many scared pitch-fork wielding peasants between themselves and the scary giant as possible. Regular people will probably be thankful when the giant is helpful but try to avoid getting too involved when they don't see a clear benefit. Those scared of the giant will likely be all too happy to spread whatever rumors they hear.

For a much smaller giant, f.ex. a mundane human with regular Gigantism I could see it being advantageous. You're not scary enough that most leaders feel unsafe when they are surrounded by their guards, but you're scary enough that they might want to put you on a big horse to lead their armies.

Anyway, all this can of course be largely override by a strong reputation in the area. A stoic and capable Giant who is part of the king's royal guard is mostly just going to be meet with reverence of those who know of him and recognize the uniform.

If you want to quickly become popular in the new places you visits I think you're much better of as a cute and innocent-acting little fairy who likes to cast "Essential Food" or "Fool's Banquet" on random pastries. Giants are just too threatening, I think.
Definetely a different view of humanity than I have.
City birds are more courageous than this fearful type of humanity.
Children are, too.
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Old 05-18-2022, 03:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

Extremely small SM seems broken for reasons that amount to "reach can't drop below C" and "once your hands become too small to use any piece of equipment available for sale, even smaller hands aren't a meaningful disadvantage".
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Old 05-18-2022, 07:00 PM   #36
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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Meanwhile, low SM is quite overpowered, especially in a super-hero setting where tiny heroes being strong/tough/fast is totally fine. You can create an Ant-Man with SM-10 and ST enough to slam enemies like the bullet from a rifle. Or, for even more OP-ness create an SM-10 fairy with telekinetic powers. Either way most people won't see you, much less succeed in hitting you with attacks.
It's suggested rule (Pyramid #3/77) that SM penalties and bonuses to melee are capped, so past a certain point being small doesn't help with avoiding and landing melee attacks.

Also, if you're really tiny (relatively speaking - a difference of 7 to SM), they can fly-swat you.

But yes, when you can have arbitrary levels levels of ST and movement powers, etc., whatever size you are, then large size becomes of far less worth.
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Old 05-18-2022, 08:31 PM   #37
naloth
 
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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It's suggested rule (Pyramid #3/77) that SM penalties and bonuses to melee are capped, so past a certain point being small doesn't help with avoiding and landing melee attacks.

Also, if you're really tiny (relatively speaking - a difference of 7 to SM), they can fly-swat you.
I'd suggest using the relative SM of the weapon or target, whichever is better. That caps swatting something with your hand as at most a -4 SM penalty, less if you're greater than SM0.
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Old 05-18-2022, 10:59 PM   #38
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

Oh, and using the Pyramid #3/77 Combat Writ Large rules tiny but very strong characters will find it difficult to apply their strength when grappling due to an inability to grip properly. Meanwhile the big guy gets a nice bonus to hit and a huge bonus to pin (and there's not suggestion that this should be capped). That little SM-10 pixie might be hard to see, but a normal human trying to grab it gets a +4 to hit and a +30 to any attempt to pin. It's going to need to be a very strong pixie to be getting out of that.
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Old 05-19-2022, 02:29 AM   #39
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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Definetely a different view of humanity than I have.
City birds are more courageous than this fearful type of humanity.
Children are, too.
Children are of course disposed to rely on adults, that's an important evolutionary trait.

Spotting a random 5-meter man hanging around in a busy public park in modern day Sweden wouldn't particularly scary (if 5-meter giants was not unheard off and giants didn't have a terrible reputation). That is very different from the world and situation typical fantasy-setting adventurers run around; where people tend to be fairly xenophobic for reasonable reasons, and have much less protection from thugs.

All adventurers and other visitors are possible threats, that goes for human-sized ones too. A small village might be hesitant to let a group of armed mercenary-looking adventurers in unless they thought the risk was worth it.

The context of the encounter matters a lot. Spotting a giant hanging around in a market isn't scary. Being suddenly approached by one there would be rather scary, and this is generally how people run into adventurers. Of course any situation where it would feel scary to run into a scary-looking human would be far scarier if it was a giant. Meanwhile, much less scary to get a sudden "HEY LISTEN!" in your face from an angry drunk sparkling little fairy out in a dark alley.

As someone else pointed out earlier, there is a reason giants, especially male ones, are typically man-eating monsters in myths.
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Old 05-19-2022, 02:39 AM   #40
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Default Re: What has high SM ever done for us?

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Children are of course disposed to rely on adults, that's an important evolutionary trait.

Spotting a random 5-meter man hanging around in a busy public park in modern day Sweden wouldn't particularly scary (if 5-meter giants was not unheard off and giants didn't have a terrible reputation). That is very different from the world and situation typical fantasy-setting adventurers run around; where people tend to be fairly xenophobic for reasonable reasons, and have much less protection from thugs.

All adventurers and other visitors are possible threats, that goes for human-sized ones too. A small village might be hesitant to let a group of armed adventurers in unless they thought the risk was worth it, f.ex. if they were confident that any violent or thieving visitors would be deterred by a possible punishment from their lords, thought the adventurers might spend some coin, or they simply looked trustworthy, or of a status/reputation where denying entrance might be riser than not doing so.

The context of the encounter matters a lot. Spotting a giant hanging around in a market isn't scary. Being suddenly approached by one there would be rather scary, and this is generally how people run into adventurers. Of course any situation where it would feel scary to run into a scary-looking human would be far scarier if it was a giant. Meanwhile, much less scary to get a "HEY LISTEN!" in your face from an angry drunk sparkling little fairy out in an alley.

As someone else pointed out earlier, there is a reason giants, especially male ones, are typically man-eating monsters in myths.
Pixies are regarded as potentially deadly too.

I just have a hard time picturing any actual human people going: This is a large human, he's gonna kill and rape everyone!

"Greetings everyone, I'm large man."
"AYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
"but I"
"AYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEE"
"Wait...w-"
"Raaapiiiisttttt! Usurperrrr! Kill you!"
"What's wrong with you?!"
"You are huge! That means you have a huge desire to be evil, als you have huge guts, and you're going to rip and tear. Ours! We hate your big guts big man"
"Why?!"
"Ever heard of the TITANS?"
"Uh I'm just a really big dude, dude."
"No way you're a pervert predator and you're gonna overthrow the king with your largeness!"
"Why is that magpie next to you not flying away? You're even bigger in relation to it"
"yeah well, that's different. Ever seen a magpie cite the end times titans? Didn't think so. Go away you nasty giant"
"I'm literally like you only bigger."
"No, you're evil. And I'm scared of you. You're awful"
"That's uncalled for."
"Did I just see a twinge in your brow? You really ARE as hateful and dangerous as they say"
"You've been very insulting to me, you know?"
"Yeah well maybe try being a dwarf next time, then we can talk."
"But you disrespect those too."
"Well they can't squash me at a whim, now, can they"
"So you feel good when you're bigger than them?"
"Yeah, and I'm mean to them, QED. Now beat it, Lurch. Before we bring the cannons."


:|

Edit/P.S.:
It really is amusing to me that there's a notion that people would rather talk to dragons or something than a really big man.
That there are/were bear cults IRL (and bears are scary), but a big man is public enemy number one.
That people sigh whistfully at whalesong (those are quite large) but abhor the big man.
That people IRL quasi campaigned against D&D 'chaotic evil branding' of some races, even like orcs which literally were described as quite unsavory but "not all orcs, not every half orc has to be conceived via assault"
But a big man...literally just a large man of large proportion is the default boogieman.
Ohh, or clifford the big dog. That's fine, but not a big man?


Maybe I'm just not jaded enough regarding humanity.
And to think people routinely go: Be the bigger man about this.

Mixed signals, mixed signals.

Last edited by Lovewyrm; 05-19-2022 at 05:59 AM.
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