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Old 05-17-2022, 05:10 AM   #1
Gollum
 
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Default Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

Hello folks! Here is my new question while reading GURPS rules more closely ...

Isn’t the climbing roll failure much too harsh?

Indeed, the rules say: “Any failure means you fall” (Basic Set, page 349), while other dangerous activities don’t have such punitive consequences. I’m thinking about driving rolls during a car chase, for instance, where you’ve got the Stability Rating of the vehicle, which allows to avoid a crash if the margin of failure is not too high.

In the past, we already discussed about that and the answer was that, during a car chase, you make a success roll every turn while, during a climbing, you make a success roll only every five minutes ...

I do agree. But all climbing doesn’t last 5 minutes. If you are trapped in a building, for instance, and just try to go from one balcony to the other to flee your pursuers (a typical action in many movies) does a failure by 1 really mean that you fall ... and surely die?

Or are there any official optional rules about climbing in some supplements that I don’t know (or didn’t read with enough attention)?
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Old 05-17-2022, 07:14 AM   #2
DemiBenson
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

There’s always Luck, and that optional rule in one of the Power-Ups to spend character points to add a setting detail; in this case it would be “Add a bouncy sunshade between me and the ground”, or “But there’s a flagpole right below me, which I can grab”
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Old 05-17-2022, 07:17 AM   #3
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

If you fail a Climbing roll, you fall. Falling is not dangerous. Stopping at the end is dangerous, and how dangerous it is depends on howh far you fall.

So what you're concerned about is not the harsh consequence of failing a Climbing roll, but the damage at the end. If you attempt a Climbing roll a few feet above a deep pool and you can swim, the only consequence of failing is getting wet.

Climbing is a very dangerous activity. A straight Climbing roll is like other straight skill rolls: it assumes a high-pressure adventuring context. To mitigate the dangers of falling, improve your chances of not falling. Take extra time (B346). Use fine-quality equipment (B345). Climb easier surfaces (e.g., don't free-climb that building; use a grapnel and a rope... or better yet, bring a ladder). If you're ultra-tech enough, you can bring along equipment that mitigates the damage after the fall (like "inertial dampeners").
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:12 AM   #4
Dalin
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

I adjust what failure means depending on genre and stakes. Examples of this already exist in GURPS. In Action and DF, for example, if you fail a climbing roll, you get a DX roll to "catch something." For cinematic action, I would typically specify a cascade of ever-worse conditions. Hanging on the lip, catching a root, dangling by your suspenders, etc., avoiding a "save or die" situation.

On the stakes front, I consider what is on the line. If timing matters, a failed roll might just mean that you get stuck and have to backtrack, doubling the time for the climb. If it's about finding a way past an obstacle, maybe failure means that you can't find a safe route to the top of the cliff. Need to come up with a new plan. If stealth is the goal, maybe you are spotted by the guards.
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:22 AM   #5
thalcos
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

Don't forget the official rules say "Make one roll to start the climb and another roll every five minutes." (B349)

So, a failed climbing roll a the start of a climb isn't going to be very bad at all (unless you're climbing DOWN...)

Last edited by thalcos; 05-17-2022 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 05-17-2022, 10:34 AM   #6
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
I adjust what failure means depending on genre and stakes. Examples of this already exist in GURPS. In Action and DF, for example, if you fail a climbing roll, you get a DX roll to "catch something." For cinematic action, I would typically specify a cascade of ever-worse conditions. Hanging on the lip, catching a root, dangling by your suspenders, etc., avoiding a "save or die" situation.
Same, as much as possible, but sometimes the end's just the end.
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Old 05-17-2022, 12:47 PM   #7
Gollum
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
I adjust what failure means depending on genre and stakes. Examples of this already exist in GURPS. In Action and DF, for example, if you fail a climbing roll, you get a DX roll to "catch something."
Oh, yes, I totally skipped that one. Thank you very much. It makes sense.

I perfectly understand that climbing is very dangerous. And I also perfectly understand everything about avoiding damage of falling (security rope and so on) as well as taking more time to get bonuses, and the first climb roll to start (which won’t cause any fall in case of failure) …

But, when I was younger, I climbed a lot of trees. And the two possibilities (either you succeed, or you fall) is not true. Sometimes, I didn’t succeed to start, indeed. But other times I climbed several meters before giving up and going back down because I was unable to climb higher. I didn’t succeed to climb those trees but didn’t fall either. Situations in which you don’t find good climbing catches or in which you begin to slip and suddenly realize that trying to go higher becomes too dangerous are quite common.
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Old 05-17-2022, 12:59 PM   #8
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

An automatic fall if you blow a Climbing roll is harsh but realistic.

That's why most climbers use safety ropes and tie them off so that they don't fall more than 2-3 yards.

Either that or they use a spotter and a belaying line, giving the spotter a ST roll with a hefty bonus to halt the climber's fall.

There are workarounds.

First, give big bonuses to climb most surfaces. For example, a cliff face might have lots of handholds and be slightly less than 90 degrees, giving a +4 or higher bonus to climb it. Climbing from one balcony to another would give an even bigger bonus, at least for most buildings, perhaps +6.

Second, it's up to the GM to determine how bad a fall is or exactly where it occurs during the climb. For anything short of free climbing a skyscraper in a high wind, the GM can rule that a "fall" is actually a slip which makes you lose 1d turns of upward movement and gives you a second ST-based Climbing roll to save yourself. If you do fall, you might only fall to a ledge rather than going all the way to the ground.
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Old 05-17-2022, 01:23 PM   #9
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
But, when I was younger, I climbed a lot of trees. And the two possibilities (either you succeed, or you fall) is not true. Sometimes, I didn’t succeed to start, indeed. But other times I climbed several meters before giving up and going back down because I was unable to climb higher. I didn’t succeed to climb those trees but didn’t fall either. Situations in which you don’t find good climbing catches or in which you begin to slip and suddenly realize that trying to go higher becomes too dangerous are quite common.
Bear in mind, in the first place, that a standard roll represents performing a task under some time pressure as part of an adventure; that is, the task is inherently risky. If you are climbing a tree casually, for your own enjoyment, you would do so at a bonus. An ordinary tree is +5, and you could climb it slowly for a greater bonus.

You could adopt a house rule where if you fail your Climbing roll by 1 point, you have slipped slightly and have a chance to catch yourself. Or you could take it that "slip" means that you fall to the next branch down.

I would also suggest that you get increasing penalties as you climb higher and the tree becomes less able to support your weight. When you feel that it's too dangerous to climb higher, that reflects the penalty being greater than you want to risk.

On the other hand, you might have started out climbing trees that were exceptionally easy and gave you extra bonuses.

All of this is the sort of thing that a GM should think about in assigning modifiers and task difficulties.
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Old 05-17-2022, 01:26 PM   #10
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: Reading GURPS rules more closely: climbing roll failure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
But, when I was younger, I climbed a lot of trees. And the two possibilities (either you succeed, or you fall) is not true. Sometimes, I didn’t succeed to start, indeed. But other times I climbed several meters before giving up and going back down because I was unable to climb higher. I didn’t succeed to climb those trees but didn’t fall either. Situations in which you don’t find good climbing catches or in which you begin to slip and suddenly realize that trying to go higher becomes too dangerous are quite common.
Those situations are not what a Climbing roll in GURPS represents. Those are your GM telling you things like "The branches up here are too thick to pass." A Climbing roll is only made for situations where you need to avoid falling. If you can't or probably won't fall, there is no Climbing roll.

In other words, a Climbing roll isn't a "did you succeed in reaching your target?" roll, it's a "did you fall while trying to reach your target?" roll.
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