Unarmed Combat Again

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I couldn't agree more. I think the armor prohibition is silly, too, considering that samurai would have been trained in UC and used punches and throws if necessary, despite wearing significant armor.

By RAW, most armor prevents the use of the higher tier UC talents based on their DX penalties alone. So even if you ignore the blanket prohibition statement, you would need a very high DX (or deep pockets for DX-boosting enchantments) unless those minimums are removed as well.

Although, I suppose that may a GM discretion thing since, unlike FENCER, the text does not explicitly say your adjDX may not drop below the prerequisite stat values.

[hcobb]

So remove armor and carry requirements?
A UC expert can defend with one free hand or attack with a free hand or foot?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

So remove armor and carry requirements?
A UC expert can defend with one free hand or attack with a free hand or foot?

That's sorta the point of my UNFETTERED DEFENSE talent... to separate the core unarmed (or really, any) fighting skills from training that is designed to take advantage of the enhanced mobility when unarmored.

If I were to it put into a RAW-friendly form, it would probably look like...

IQ 12 - UNFETTERED DEFENSE (2)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the character is harder to hit. Attacks from the figure's front hexes have a -2 DX penalty applied and thrown or missile weapon attacks (as long as the target is aware of them) are at -4 DX to hit.

Note: I probably wouldn't let this stack with UC's Evade ability as I would prefer to separate out that aspect of UNARMED COMBAT.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Keeping the old UC (mostly) left them out of balance WRT Dagger Mastery.

Sure, Henry, that was probably the discussion at the table. How do we ensure that UC is in balance with Dagger Mastery?

Because if they're out of balance, the whole game will go out of whack. These are easily the two commonest talents in the game. (They are slightly behind Staff V, if we're counting spells.)

[David Bofinger]

Using throws and grapples in plate was certainly a thing, as was hurting lightly armoured people by bashing them with armour-covered bits of your body.

Not sure what samurai armour counts as in TFT. Probably only leather. So only slightly past the limit.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Sure, Henry, that was probably the discussion at the table. How do we ensure that UC is in balance with Dagger Mastery?

Because if they're out of balance, the whole game will go out of whack. These are easily the two commonest talents in the game. (They are slightly behind Staff V, if we're counting spells.)

Game balance between two hard to get talents, that most of us has never seen in actual play together might not be a big deal.

That said, they still affect the game. There is a difference between Fencing and Expertise with other weapons. Not a big difference but it is still there making 9/12/11 with fencing way more common than the same build with Axe/Mace expertise.

If there were an even bigger difference at Mastery level that heavily favored Axe/Mace. Do you think it would change our choice of starting characters? Making 9/12/11 Axe/Mace Expertise the favorite? I would sure say so. Players often hope and plan for a long campaign and dream about 40-point characters with lots of extra talents, even if they know that most characters will never make it there.

So even if Staff V is reached by few. If it were an even more powerful spell, people would create special builds aimed to get it and then beeline for it. So even that spell could skew the game at 32-point level.

[phiwum]

It's certainly the case that some spells already do skew character creation. Fire, Illusion and Staff are very common for PCs and it's common as well for players to aim for Staff III quickly if they don't start with it.

And you're right that Ax/Mace expertise isn't as tempting as Fencing, since folks like the free two-weapons, though that's a bit short-sighted. The two-weapons is limited, I think, to two rapiers, rapier/main gauche or saber/main gauche. And in general, you're not getting better than the 2d-2 damage of a saber, whereas Ax/Mace (or Sword) expertise gets you to real damage with some ST investment.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Fire, Illusion and Staff are very common for PCs and it's common as well for players to aim for Staff III

The list in my template document is "Lightning and 4-Hex Illusion (IQ 14), Staff III and 3-Hex Wall (IQ 13), 3-Hex Fire and Fireball (IQ 12), Illusion and Sleep (IQ 11) and Summon Myrmidon (IQ 10)".

and it's common as well for players to aim for Staff III quickly if they don't start with it.

"Quickly if you don't start with it" doesn't happen in Legacy RAW. If you don't have it at generation it will take a long time.

And you're right that Ax/Mace expertise isn't as tempting as Fencing

Fencing is better initially. In the long run Fencing's growth path sucks.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by phiwum

It's certainly the case that some spells already do skew character creation. Fire, Illusion and Staff are very common for PCs and it's common as well for players to aim for Staff III quickly if they don't start with it.

And you're right that Ax/Mace expertise isn't as tempting as Fencing, since folks like the free two-weapons, though that's a bit short-sighted. The two-weapons is limited, I think, to two rapiers, rapier/main gauche or saber/main gauche. And in general, you're not getting better than the 2d-2 damage of a saber, whereas Ax/Mace (or Sword) expertise gets you to real damage with some ST investment.

I have come to the conclusion that starting a wizard without staff 3 is a huge handicap. But, that's just my opinion. It does limit the amount of ST the wizard has. It's a trade off.

Fencing is attractive for a beginning character per the reasons stated. There is also IQ points left to pick up more diverse talents. Via the sacrifice of sinking initial IQ into Weapon/Weapon Expertise and Two Weapons talent (Usually 8 IQ points), you effective start with a fencer if you start with Sword talent but as his ST increases he can wield larger swords than sabers. Fencing also requires that AdjDX be a minimum of 12. Weapons expertise requires DX of 12 and is not linked to AdjDX. So, unlike Fencing, if your armor drops you below DX 12, you still can use these talents. This also applies to the equivalent Axe/Mace, and some unusual weapons.

I have a player with a tank PC that went the Axe/Expertise route. It's worked out well for him. He has limited himself to one hand weapons because he also has shield expertise. So, his damage is a bit limited but he gets to stack the evasive/defensive benefits of weapons and shield expertise. It's a trade off.