Schrödinger's Hobgoblin infinite loop

[hcobb]

Figures commit to an action when they move. The action determines their adjDX and hence their turn to act. When this turn to act arrives they can change their mind. If the new action has an equal or higher adjDX they act now. If their new adjDX is less than the next guy then they wait and can change again when the dice are next handed to them.

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Figures commit to an action when they move. The action determines their adjDX and hence their turn to act. When this turn to act arrives they can change their mind. If the new action has an equal or higher adjDX they act now. If their new adjDX is less than the next guy then they wait and can change again when the dice are next handed to them.

I can't imagine you mean what it sounds like you mean. Combatants definitely do not commit to an action when they move - that is core to the way the movement and action segments of the Melee turn work. Your movement may limit the set of actions from which you can choose, but your actual selection of an action doesn't happen until you act, after all movement has ceased. I feel like you must know this, based on previous discussions on this and other threads.

I think I agree with what you are saying about choice of action determining adjDX and therefore action order, assuming you mean that some actions carry with them implicit DX modifiers. The rest of that paragraph all checks out.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by hcobb

If you don't want the infinite loop then what's the minimum word change to avoid it?

Honestly, it just doesn't happen under the RAW. The GM has to bend the rules to permit PC to keep changing his target over and over and over. Just stick to the rules and say "No!" if not the first time, them the 2nd. There's no loop if the rules are actually followed.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by MikMod

TL;DR: I'm happy to allow Delayed Actions, you're not. :)

Everything I said was pointing out that TFT's rules are not particularly friendly to Delayed Actions -- that isn't how I feel about them personally.

I completely favor house rules that would liberalize their use -- we just don't seem to have talked about what those would be yet!

Me, I wouldn't mess with the Waiting for an Opening rule. I might rename it though, call it something that makes its function less easily confused with waiting to act later within the same turn. It's fine for what it does, and is still needed to regulate a DX bonus for thrown attack and missile weapon users who want take that extra turn or two to aim carefully.

But the Delayed Actions rule could be made standard, not optional, while being tweaked so as not to cause any chaos or slower play. I'd like to call this the Wait option, and put it on the List of Options.

Picking it would mean delaying your action, whatever it is, until a later round of adjDX in the same combat phase. An adjDX 14 figure could Wait until the adjDX 10 figures, if any, are all acting, and "jump in". It could be allowed to go first among the DX 10 figures (I'd prefer that) or have to roll a tie-breaker with a DX 10 figure who wants to go first in that round (the extra rolls would slow the game, but on the other hand provide some interesting drama).

The waiting DX 14 figure could mess up, waiting too long by accident. If he doesn't jump in by the last round of adjDX actions, something that would always be a little unpredictable, then he's missed his chance to act for that turn. Being higher DX he might be the first person to act next turn anyway, but now the enemy has all had one more chance to move and the situation could be entirely different.

[hcobb]

A related question is if somebody falls down in front of you do you get to change your action to kick them (with the +4 DX boost) before they get back up?

[larsdangly]

That is an interesting question. Did they fall during movement or as a consequence of an action? Presumably the latter, as the former case presents a relatively obvious answer to your question. Also, isn't it true that some reasons for falling do not allow you to try to rise on the same turn? My rule book is not in front of me but I feel like if you are knocked to the ground by an 8 point injury you cannot just bounce back up on the same turn.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Is your point that eventually someone has to 'blink' by committing to an action?

Yes, or as per my example, if both parties elect to wait then the round expires with no actions. So it doesn't get that frustrating as GM.

Originally Posted by larsdangly

in the situation we are discussing it seems obvious to me that if the PC defers to see what his or her foes will do, then the goblins should obviously take the opportunity to attack.

In my head it's obvious they won't attack, as mentioned, because their primary goal is not to be hit, so they're saving a defend in case they need it. If they attack then unless they knock the PC out, they would not be able to defend if counter attacked. But it does depend on many circumstances.

I think this stuff does hang on how happy you are to play the Delayed Action option. Having used it a lot, I wouldn't say it's a real problem, and I have some concerns about not using it - as the rules say, it adds realism. It's probably just what I'm used to tho.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by hcobb

A related question is if somebody falls down in front of you do you get to change your action to kick them (with the +4 DX boost) before they get back up?

Sure, why not, unless their action to stand is faster than your adjDX+4

[Steve Plambeck]

Then there's this...

PC: I attack Hobgoblin A.
GM: Hobgoblin A changes his option to Defend. Hobgoblin B changes his option to Attack.
PC: Well then I attack Hobgoblin B.
GM: Hobgoblin B changes his option to Defend. Hobgoblin A changes his option to Attack.
PC: Well then I attack Hobgoblin A.
EVERYONE, including PC's friends and allies: Well I'm attacking PC. Yeah, me too. We're all attacking PC.
PC: (dies screaming)

Problem over.
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To hcobb's latest question:

STAND is a bit of a weird option isn't it? A figure doesn't STAND until the end of the combat phase, rather than on their turn to act. And then only if no other action at all, except crawling, was used that turn. I gather even second shots by archers with 2 shots per turn come before STAND. It might as well be a separate phase all its own.

The figure who falls in an enemy's front hex may definitely be kicked by that enemy at least once, and maybe even twice before it gets to STAND. The fallen figure, if it did anything else at all on the turn it fell, cannot STAND until the very end of the next turn. If the standing figure hasn't acted already, it gets to kick the fallen figure now, on the current turn. When the fallen figure can't STAND until the end of the next turn, then the kicker will get a second turn to act before that can happen, and could kick again.

Being on the ground is the next worse thing to being already dead in this game. You're generally safer being seriously wounded, but on your feet, than being unscathed but on the ground.

[Skarg]

I've been away from the forum a bit, and just reading some replies from before.

Originally Posted by MikMod

It can get a little messy, though in play it is a rare occurrence. The alternative seems to be to penalize the faster character by forcing them to take a bad option early regardless of what the slower characters do. I hope you can see how it seems fair for a faster character to be able to 'read' the combat somewhat before deciding what they will do?

If you don't allow Delayed Actions, then I can see someone thinking of acting first as being penalized by this. I don't think I agree with or have much sympathy with that idea, but I can see someone feeling that way.

Nonetheless, acting first is also its own reward, and often decisive in combat. If I have a choice between acting first, and letting my foes act first so I can see who's Defending or Dodging, I would MUCH rather attack first. In practice, Dodging and certainly Defending tended to be quite rare except in circumstances where it made sense to expect they'd do that anyway. Whereas people dying because they didn't act first happened all the time.

And if you DO allow Delayed Actions, then the faster figures aren't penalized, since acting first is optional for them.