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Old 02-12-2014, 04:16 PM   #21
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

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Originally Posted by mook View Post
I began running into the problem that, if I make everything above average, they start turning into superheroes. Which isn't to say that they aren't, but they also need to be gameable!
It seems a little odd to me to want to portray the "best of the best of the best" and then shy away from actually making them that. I would suggest one of three solutions:

1) Up your game. Improve the characters, improve the challenges to match.

2) Drop them being SAD, and make them a Joint Task Force - they often pull together operators from different services, and can be accurately represented within your point budget and sense of gameability.

3) Take them off the line for a while. They were in SAD but retired, or took desk jobs, or were retired for PTSD (lowering Will!), or were otherwise put in a position where their condition and skills had a few years to wane to gameable levels. Then decide why they would be the ones to do the job - perhaps they were mercs, happened to be in the area, and the window for the operation was too thin to fly in a proper team. I actually like this option just because it gives more room for flaws in the characters - not actually being in the service any more, they could have all kinds of flaws that would not normally be allowed!
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Old 02-12-2014, 05:30 PM   #22
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

You know what? You're absolutely right -- they're the closest thing we have to a real Batman.

Revised as 375 point characters, new IQ minimum of 12, new Will and Per minimum of 14. Take that, bad guys!
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Old 02-13-2014, 06:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

For what it's worth, I've found it extremely difficult to properly represent any of the operational JSOC guys for under 350 points.

I even had a thread shortly after TS came out where the general consensus by the community (Doug Cole and Icelander too) was that a Delta/CAG/ACE Assaulter would probably need around a 21 firearm skill to be able to do in GURPs what they have to be able to do in real life.

Found it! Here it is.

So yeah, you are in "superhero/action hero" territory. You are in "real-life, highest level operator" territory.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:15 PM   #24
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

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Originally Posted by mook View Post
I began running into the problem that, if I make everything above average, they start turning into superheroes. Which isn't to say that they aren't, but they also need to be gameable! If the all the minimums are super high, there's not enough room to differentiate even a little -- I could just give everyone a 13 in all four stats and call it a day. I'm hoping a Will of 12 will be enough.
I have mixed feelings about Will scores for these guys necessarily being high (there are arguments to be made both ways), but it seems Per should outshine IQ for most of them. Something like a 10 or 11 IQ with a 12 or 13 Per seems more realistic for SF guys than a 12 or 13 IQ. I was actually proposing dropping down IQ, retaining the same Per and improving the HT. You could retain the same Will or spend those points elsewhere.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
I even had a thread shortly after TS came out where the general consensus by the community (Doug Cole and Icelander too) was that a Delta/CAG/ACE Assaulter would probably need around a 21 firearm skill to be able to do in GURPs what they have to be able to do in real life.
I think you're exaggerating a little. What Doug concluded was that an 18 in Guns would be about right to simulate a reported training exercise with a near-total confidence in success (effective skill 15 after all modifiers). Since he guesstimated a +3 bonus for the training conditions, that would imply a 21 would be required to pull off the same feat in combat with the same level of confidence.

The trick is that you shouldn't expect them to pull off the same tricks in actual combat as when showing off in training for a reporter, or at least you accept that in a real fire-fight there will be misses and possibly even friendly fire. A skill level of 21 isn't out of bounds for the best soldiers in the best special operations units operating in the prime of their career (because they are almost certainly the best shooters of their generation). But it's not typical or required.
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Old 02-14-2014, 06:07 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Miles View Post
I think you're exaggerating a little. What Doug concluded was that an 18 in Guns would be about right to simulate a reported training exercise with a near-total confidence in success (effective skill 15 after all modifiers). Since he guesstimated a +3 bonus for the training conditions, that would imply a 21 would be required to pull off the same feat in combat with the same level of confidence.
Try to understand where I'm coming from here. If you have a team of Delta/CAG/ACE guys do a hostage rescue room clearing assault, they HAVE to be able to do with zero friendly casualties and guaranteed kills on the tangos. IRL, there is no margin of error. If a Skill of 21 is what it takes to make this happen in GURPS, then a Skill 21 is what THOSE guys need to have.


Quote:
The trick is that you shouldn't expect them to pull off the same tricks in actual combat as when showing off in training for a reporter
They weren't showing off in front of a reporter. Eric Haney, who wrote the book Inside Delta Force, was an actual Delta operator. He was describing his training experience. This wasn't the Delta Cadre doing a media photo-op. This was them showing the new operators what they needed to be capable of doing IN REAL LIFE.

It's not tricks. It's life-or-death **** where you can't make any mistakes. I'm not saying these guys are infallible, but they do drill this type of scenario often enough that their chance of failure is going to be statistically small.

Also, to be fair, the scenario described is not exactly something I would consider combat. And IRL, it would be the same way. Fire-fights suck. They are incredibly dangerous and unpredictable. That's why these guys leverage their planning and training in order to be able to execute without having to worry about a "fire-fight" where the bad guys get to take cover and shoot back.


Quote:
...or at least you accept that in a real fire-fight there will be misses and possibly even friendly fire.
There will be misses in a real fire-fight, even by someone with a GURPS skill of 21. But the scenario in question was not a fire-fight.


Quote:
A skill level of 21 isn't out of bounds for the best soldiers in the best special operations units operating in the prime of their career (because they are almost certainly the best shooters of their generation). But it's not typical or required.
To be clear, I was talking about these guys. By most measures, they ARE the best soldiers in the best Special Operations unit (DEVGRU froggies might beg to differ). This is a unit of probably less than 400 shooters that spends more money on ammunition annually than the entire USMC. These guys HAVE to be that good because of their mission requirements.

And for the record, that level of skill is REQUIRED to be a Delta shooter. If you can't shoot to that level, you don't pass OTC.

One more thing. I was not implying in any way that a SAD SOG team would need to have Guns 21. I just wanted to make sure we are all on the same page in regards to that.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

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Fire-fights suck. They are incredibly dangerous and unpredictable.
Fair fights are for suckers. The trick is to make sure that the fight is as unfair as possible to your advantage. That's why ambushes rock.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:42 PM   #28
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

Both games ran very smoothly and everyone seemed to have a really great time. I will post more, but for now I have updated the links in the original post to the entire player packets (character sheets, rules overviews, equipment management, and so on), as well as added a link to the GM Sheets I used when running.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:21 PM   #29
DCB
 
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
I even had a thread shortly after TS came out where the general consensus by the community (Doug Cole and Icelander too) was that a Delta/CAG/ACE Assaulter would probably need around a 21 firearm skill to be able to do in GURPs what they have to be able to do in real life.

Found it! Here it is.
That wasn't the consensus, though, for two main reasons.

First and most importantly, as safisher pointed out, the required skill level strongly depends on what GURPS actions you're choosing to use to represent the real-life actions. The difference between a double-tap every 1 second (AoA) and every 2 seconds (Aim then AoA) is massive in GURPS terms -- up to +6[1] -- which is the difference between skill levels of "not even professional grade" and "stands out among experts". It's not clear which set of actions are correct -- or whether GURPS even has a good match -- but it's certainly the case that there's by necessity a very large subjective component in translating reality into GURPS actions here.

Secondly, the Skill 18/21 estimate seems to have a couple of omissions:
- Each Targeted Attack bonus can go +1 higher (TS p.45 says to round up)
- MP5 has Rcl 2, not 3 (HT p.123-124, no apparent errata)
- Trademark Move: Half-Move and AoA (Determined) Double Tap (Vitals) (TS p.41, suggested on TS p.15)
Each of these gives an additional +1 to hit in the scenario.

With these additions, the required skill goes down to:
- Guns-18: minimal miss chance in combat
- Guns-15: minimal miss chance in training (what was observed)
- Guns-12: minimal miss chance in combat with basic aiming
- Guns-9: minimal miss chance in training with basic aiming

Note that Guns-14/15 is the canonical estimate for specops soldiers (TS p.42), so the fast way of modeling their training (AoA with no aiming) appears to be fairly reasonable with these additions.

(That's assuming you take into account the +3 non-combat bonus for perfectly stationary targets who will never shoot back, never blow up, never get backup, and are in a familiar environment, which seems reasonable. To get a minimal miss chance in combat, one option is to introduce new combat actions that split the difference between AoA and Aim+AoA to get two kills per 3 seconds.)


[1] +3 base Acc +2 Acc from Very Fine(Accurate) weapon +1 Acc from match grade ammunition. A Very Fine gun's cost and time commitment is so minimal relative to specops training that it seems reasonable to expect.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:39 PM   #30
Dragondog
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Default Re: Pre-Gens for Spec Ops - Opinions?

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Both games ran very smoothly and everyone seemed to have a really great time. I will post more, but for now I have updated the links in the original post to the entire player packets (character sheets, rules overviews, equipment management, and so on), as well as added a link to the GM Sheets I used when running.
I like your attention to detail. Very useful tools/examples for a GM.
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