Cosmic and Resistance Rolls

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

By thw way, there is a way to make resistance impossibile after eliminating, one way or another, the rule of 16: reducing the target's resistant value (HT, Will, etc.) under 3.

Ahem, that's by buying a straight Affliction>HT. I was talking about Spells, Psi and certain Maledictions (esp. the ones that you can't afford to raise above a couple of levels). These are straight Quick Contests.

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Ahem, that's by buying a straight Affliction>HT. I was talking about Spells, Psi and certain Maledictions (esp. the ones that you can't afford to raise above a couple of levels). These are straight Quick Contests.

Gosh! You're right, of course. Well, that's even simpler: just eliminate the rule of 16. So you could use your full value (eg. Will 16 + Talent 4 + Reliable 10), and almost any target would have no chance to resist (after all, a 30 is nearly always impossible to beat with any human-range resisting attribute).

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Molokh

No, I said what I said, and didn't mean to reverse them. Having 21, or even 30 Charm is no better than 20 against a character with Will 20, or even 16. So you're basically stuck at the 50% number for the attacker.

Once the defender's resistance reaches 16 (or higher), the attacker's chance of success is capped at 50%, not stuck there. It can still be less than that, if the defender's resistance exceeds the attacker's effective skill.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Once the defender's resistance reaches 16 (or higher), the attacker's chance of success is capped at 50%, not stuck there. It can still be less than that, if the defender's resistance exceeds the attacker's effective skill.

Well... yeah. The trick is that Maledictions are about as expensive in offense (by buying Will) as is the defense against them (normally Will too) - because Will (for either side of the Quick Contest) costs 5pts. Conclusion: defense costs as much as offense, and there's a point after which it is impossible to further improve offense. Seems like a "Hitting High Dodge/Speeding Up Combat" issue clone.

However, I still think the rule of 16 exists for some reason. But I do allow Deceptive Attack modifier, down to a resistance value of 13 (number taken from MA for 3e and slightly modified towards 4e math). Seems like a fair middle ground.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Isn't that a little steep? Rule of 16 already makes contests between high-powered characters (like 21 Charm vs 20 Will) straight 50%/50% chances, no?

Steep? I don't think so, no. Take a believable, high powered character with (let's say) Will 16, Talent 4, and Reliable +10 on his ability. Final roll 30. He's attacking a person with a resistance roll of 18.

With the Rule of 16: Attacker rolls against an 18 or less. Defender rolls against an 18 or less. 50% chance of success.

Without the Rule of 16: Attacker rolls against a 30 or less, which means he's guaranteed to succeed by at least 14 unless he rolls 17+. There's thus no way at all that the defender can resist unless he rolls a critical success. Over a 98% chance of success.

As I said, this enhancement basically turns any ability with a high activation number (which is damn easy and cheap to attain with Reliable and a modicum of Talent) into an insta-win . . . unless you crit fail or they crit succeed, you win / they lose. That's worth +300% at a minimum, IMO.

[Kromm]

Those debating this should realize that the Rule of 16 does not put an appreciable cap on the potency of a resisted ability against 99% of the world -- that is, against all those normal humans with attributes in the 8-12 range and even the outliers at 6-7 and 13-14. That is the standard against which such abilities are normed in GURPS. Comparing everything to amazing targets with resistance rolls of 16, 18, 20 . . . that's sort of missing the point. A resistible ability with a governing score of 16+ gives you almost assured success against nearly everyone!

What the Rule of 16 does is ensure that no matter how powerful the attacker is, exceptional targets always get a fair "saving throw." It applies almost exclusively to supernatural abilities -- and in the sorts of universes that have supernatural abilities, most gamers expect their heroes to succeed far better than 50% of the time against hostile effects. To keep plain old warriors and others who can't just gesture mystically and defeat everyone viable as character types, the game makes it a two-way street.

If you want to disrupt that balance, what you're really saying is that (1) you want overcoming even the strongest foes to be routine, and (2) you want to have a fair chance yourself but not extend the same to others. This is, I think, easily worth +300%. I ran plenty of GURPS in the days before the Rule of 16, and I'd have to say the rule was very welcome. It was just too easy -- for wizards in particular -- to crank up that Ultimate Ability to the level where even a demigod with Will 20 couldn't resist. Based on that experience, +300% seems like a fair price.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

I'll probably simply eliminate the rule of 16 from the game: it always seemed to me a bit unrealistic (there are things you cannot resist against, even in the real world)

Please note that the Rule of 16 doesn't apply to anything realistic or from the real world. Re-read what it says (p. B349):

If a supernatural attack (magic spell, psi ability, etc.) offers a resistance roll and the subject is living or sapient . . .

It very specifically only applies to unrealistic, supernatural effects used against the sorts of targets that have a "mind" or "life force." It's rather obviously intended for fantasy, space opera, etc.

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

and unfair (you spent a thousand of points in Talent, Reliable and so on; why should a Will or HT - remember that the rule of 16 applied to any resistance roll, not just Will-based ones - 16 character resist your ability 50% of the times?).

It's plenty fair . . . you can affect almost all the world more-or-less automatically, just not the rare few targets with near-superhuman Will. And at least your score has an effect. In most games, these effects are resisted with an unopposed "saving throw" that negates any amount of power or skill. In GURPS, you can at least keep that saving throw from getting better than a 50/50 chance by keeping pace with your likely opponents. The other way of doing things was, of course, "If you make your roll, you might affect your target. He has to make a Will roll or succumb." That's how almost every other game out there works, you know. I think that GURPS is generous in this regard.

Originally Posted by KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads

By thw way, there is a way to make resistance impossibile after eliminating, one way or another, the rule of 16: reducing the target's resistant value (HT, Will, etc.) under 3.

Yep. And that's another time-honored tradition for supernatural abilities in RPGs. When you have to affect the guy with huge natural resistances, you hit him with various "lower resist" abilities first. The Rule of 16 makes this almost required at very high levels of play, which I think is good. It reduces the odds of situations like "While the demigod had every score at 20, costing 600 points, Charm Master had an effective 27 with Mind Control for about 150 points. He just won." Situations like that are neither dramatic nor fun.

And that example serves to illustrate the reality of the situation, which is that while the attacker can focus all of his points into one, exaggerated ability, a strong defender has to spread his points out over all kinds of defenses. You will almost never spend more getting your one, abusive attack up to irresistible levels than your victim will spend being equally resistant to the many forms of attack he might have to face -- arrows, gas, poison, psi, spells, swords, etc. The Rule of 16 makes it possible for the GM to create, say, a monster that's tough in all areas without being excessively powerful in one area.

If you want to be flexible and effective with a resistible attack, why not try multiple levels of Based on (Different Attribute), as explained on p. 100 of Powers? For less than +300%, and even for less than the +50% for Reliable 10, you can get an attack resisted by IQ or HT -- your choice -- and work around even very potent defenders. The Rule of 16 still applies, but it lets you take advantage of foes who have only one huge defense.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Please note that the Rule of 16 doesn't apply to anything realistic or from the real world. Re-read what it says (p. B349):

If a supernatural attack (magic spell, psi ability, etc.) offers a resistance roll and the subject is living or sapient . . .

It very specifically only applies to unrealistic, supernatural effects used against the sorts of targets that have a "mind" or "life force."

Well, that just makes an excuse to build abilities that are justified by (somewhat soft-material) science, making the non-supernatural. :)

OTOH, I do realize that buying Malediction+Reliable or +Will is rather cheap in the long run, compared to buying multiple levels of an Affliction (especially after all the enhancements...).

Still, the concept of a '50% Saving Throw' seems to come from D&D*. GURPS Demigods would rather buy Immunity than boost Will/HT**. And I'm still waiting to experiment with my (3e) party of wizards to use a Deceptive-Attack-like mechanic. I'm still wondering as to the minimum level of resistance to leave. So far I'm thinking of 13 (i.e. giving a maximum +3 advantage to the caster). I'm just trying to get a middle-ground solution. I think it's rather a question whether you want the heroes to always have a chance, or for investment to always count - YMMV, and mine too.

----------------
*==Other systems, e.g. Storyteller, Age of Aquarius et al. use their versions quick contests, so GURPS is not unique.
**==They also probably would need Cosmic on most powers, but they are cosmic-scale creatures...

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Kromm

And that example serves to illustrate the reality of the situation, which is that while the attacker can focus all of his points into one, exaggerated ability, a strong defender has to spread his points out over all kinds of defenses. You will almost never spend more getting your one, abusive attack up to irresistible levels than your victim will spend being equally resistent to the many forms of attack he might have to face -- arrows, gas, poison, psi, spells, swords, etc. The Rule of 16 makes it possible for the GM to create, say, a monster that's tough in all areas without being excessively powerful in one area.

This is the real kicker, IMO, and has always struck me as one of the great injustices foisted upon the wannabe "bricks" of the world... You just can't defend yourself from all the different things that might be thrown at you. One idea I've toyed with is making a "Defenses Ascendant" game, where defenses are cheap enough (relative to attacks) that is will be possible (if unlikely) to defend yourself from any/every sort of effect. Characters will rarely get hurt, and eventually, everybody gets bored and goes to play something else. Good fun :)

jk/2

[transmetahuman]

While reading this thread, I had an idea that I'll throw out without thinking too hard about it (so I reserve the right to disown it if it turns out to be stupid). How about letting you trade in your levels in excess of (16/defender's score) the same way that Deceptive Attack works? You can trade two levels for -1 to the defender's roll. This is a compromise between ignoring the Rule of 16 and the way it works now, and I'm mainly thinking of those of you who were talking about ditching the Ro16 altogether, without the need for Cosmic. The rest of you could possibly use this as an effect of an alternate version of Cosmic.

I'll admit to being one of those who disliked the Ro16, and was considering ditching it before reading some of the persuasive arguments on this thread. Not sure now whether I'd replace it with this, use this as a potential Cosmic effect, use the suggested +300% Cosmic to completely ditch it, or just go with the game as written, but I won't just ditch the Ro16 now.