Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

Thanks for that example.

To resist flesh to stone only requires the ht 16, because as we discussed, a man that's very healthy and fit is harder to turn to stone than a normal joe. Silly.

Of course if we ARE talking about a 500 point magician, then a typical spell will probably be 20 (for the fatigue break) and it will be 25 if it's his particular combat speciality spell. A 16 ain't gonna cut it at close range.

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by lexington

The metaphysics of magic are up the person designing the setting. I'm not sure I'd like to play in a world where Flesh to Stone is instant death with no chance of survival. Having magic resisted by 10+MR is almost as bad.

There is a chance if survival.... If you find a way not to go toe to toe with someone who can transmogrify matter... Tactics. Dirty tricks. Diplomacy. Cookies. Whatever.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

There is a chance if survival.... If you find a way not to go toe to toe with someone who can transmogrify matter... Tactics. Dirty tricks. Diplomacy. Cookies. Whatever.

Which work only if you're going after him and not vice versa.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Which work only if you're going after him and not vice versa.

Mind Control is a thing; if you get no resistance, he gets no resistance either.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Mind Control is a thing; if you get no resistance, he gets no resistance either.

Oh I'm pretty sure that the poster has less trouble with using will to fight mind control than vitality to fight petrifaction. And of course actual spell shields would remain an option. It would only be a problem for fighters who would be even more outgunned.

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Which work only if you're going after him and not vice versa.

Works either way. If the big bad is after the PC, the gm is always going to have to decide how to make it interesting and stay true to the genre. In a gritty game where players have made a number of bad decisions making the big bad upset at them perhaps the gm goes with a midnight raid with the big bad poisoning them in their sleep with a host of magically enhanced determined veteran assassins...backed up by shock troops and the big bad him/ herself personally overseeing the operation... In that case, yes, it may be a seriously deadly game night. In most genres, Including a simulationist, the big bad does not work alone and has enough enemies that he isn't going to deal with every Johnny Snow in person. A Mage of this calibre has better things to do. In many other genres, a wizard who does have to get personally involved may use most of the party as lawn ornaments until the rest of the party can learn or find a wizard who can cast a stone to flesh spell... Note that these are always gm options, regardless of the rule of 16 or resistance rolls, but note how much more serious the group will take the big bad wizard if you make it clear that no one who has faced the big bad has survived flesh intact...and the gm mentions in the same breath oh btw the gm doesn't use the rule of 16 or even use resistance rolls

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

Works either way. If the big bad is after the PC, the gm is always going to have to decide how to make it interesting and stay true to the genre. In a gritty game where players have made a number of bad decisions making the big bad upset at them perhaps the gm goes with a midnight raid with the big bad poisoning them in their sleep with a host of magically enhanced determined veteran assassins...backed up by shock troops and the big bad him/ herself personally overseeing the operation... In that case, yes, it may be a seriously deadly game night. In most genres, Including a simulationist, the big bad does not work alone and has enough enemies that he isn't going to deal with every Johnny Snow in person.

What big bad? With no resistance rolls Joe Random magician will trash any fighter who happens to stumble into him unless the fighter manages to incapacitate him immediately.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

Note that these are always gm options, regardless of the rule of 16 or resistance rolls, but note how much more serious the group will take the big bad wizard if you make it clear that no one who has faced the big bad has survived flesh intact...and the gm mentions in the same breath oh btw the gm doesn't use the rule of 16 or even use resistance rolls

I can understand taking away the Rule of 16. It really hurts beginning characters chance of survival, though.

However, the resistance roll is the single thing that even Cosmic can't take away. A resistance roll is highly ingrained in GURPS, even if the Rule of 16 is taken away (a mere +100% enhancement).

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What big bad? With no resistance rolls Joe Random magician will trash any fighter who happens to stumble into him unless the fighter manages to incapacitate him immediately.

Ugh. Random magician? Really? When you make magic so common place that you might randomly have to fight one then yes, getting rid of resistance rolls may be bad for survivability. On the other hand, if players are aware of the no resistance house rule they will take extra care to prepare themselves to avoid random encounters with the "common" wizard. My perspective is that most wizards, like most accountants or police officers or bus drivers, will have skill levels between 11 and 14; so they will have to get in close to do their thing. What a more interesting ( and truer for making magic magical ) if pcs must plan for unresistable wizards, finding ways to keep their distance, blocking line of sight, or generally finding ways to avoid fighting those folks with knowledge of the powerful forces of magic ( sounds much more interesting to me then dealing with the mundane easily shrugged off wimpy forces of magic ).

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I can understand taking away the Rule of 16. It really hurts beginning characters chance of survival, though.

However, the resistance roll is the single thing that even Cosmic can't take away. A resistance roll is highly ingrained in GURPS, even if the Rule of 16 is taken away (a mere +100% enhancement).

It only hurts beginning characters if the game master takes away resistance rolls and then makes encounters without balancing no resistance into it. The short of it is this: the gamemaster is always responsible for balancing challenge and survivability. I find that resistance rolls make wizards less challenging as combatants... I find resistance rolls makes magic itself seem less fantastic. I feel this is compounded with the rule of 16 that makes magic a crapshoot against mortal men because of their mortal statistics. I think it makes for better fantasy and better story telling for magic to not be resistable by a stat, but something the players must overcome through guile and subterfuge.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Mind Control is a thing; if you get no resistance, he gets no resistance either.

Bill the Generic Man doesn't have Mind Control. He barely has the ability to hold a job.