01-11-2016, 09:13 PM | #121 | ||
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Australia WA
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
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If they are getting Mind shield or the like because they know they are likely to meet plenty of enemies with those traits, then that's all good for them, no player wants to be that guy the enemy mind controlled or tapped into their brain for all their friends weaknesses. Quote:
Though really if anyone were telling me that the Rule of 16 isn't fair in high point games I won't argue there, in my experience many things start falling apart at high enough point levels, especially when powers or magic is involved. I'm sure there are many GMs who know how to handle such games, but I'm not one of them. |
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01-12-2016, 04:41 AM | #122 | |||
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
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The same it true for silver and werewolves, garlic and vampires and a host of other things. It's in the hand of the players, or a GM that does monsters like this in random encounters, when things go wrong. Quote:
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I think the only solution is to have Save-or-Die effects only available as plot elements, not as something that PCs and enemies can regularly do. But then you run into the problem of people like Professor X, who could kill the world with a single thought it he wanted (at least when amplified by Cerebro). But you could argue that that would be no fun in a game.
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Hi, I'm new to GURPS. I've played (A)D&D 1/2/3(.5)/PF/4/5, M&M, SW:SE*, GW. *Favourite My job is the next best thing after being an Astronaut: Building and using the biggest telescopes in the world. |
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01-12-2016, 01:40 PM | #123 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Indiana
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
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By and large, the groups I've played in have been friends. Though there are the occasional One-Upper players. I knew a player who would drop his character a few weeks into a campaign in order to either make up a character specifically made to do better in the campaign situation (and then change characters when the situation changed) or would see what other people generally had and make a character designed to be able to beat one or more of them. NOT for the purpose of actually fighting them but just the bragging rights of being able to beat them. Of course, since these characters were ringers specifically designed to do that, he was generally not very liked. But, because we were all friends, sometimes, you just grit your teeth and, to a point, put up with people's weaknesses. |
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01-12-2016, 04:21 PM | #124 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bristol
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
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Resistance to psi is a nice one. So resistant to telephathy, telekinesis (not stuff thrown at the character) and also any healing abilities. Or everyone can get up that vertical cliff with the PK guy picking them up and lifting them up until the resistant guy has to find something to hang on to in order to do the same trick. The high skilled dudes can cope with a myriad of penalties. The point of the rule of 16 is to have a degree of success and failure. As mentioned above a +4 difference succeeds about 80% of the time. If players want I have uber skill/power to trump you and walk over without rolling dice would like like to see NPCs who have better abilities do it to them? Tough it is a game balance. Not much of one but one that stops ultimate walk overs. Mook with a Will of 10 is pretty much doomed to the PC anyway and you may as well waive it. More important NPCs you give the contests. |
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01-14-2016, 04:06 PM | #125 | |||
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
So, having caught up after having been away from the boards for a few days, seems like the discussion hasn't shifted much save for a few (I think) new faces (or rather screen names and avatars) that hadn't commented prior.
Like I said, I'm not seeing the benefit of the Rule of 16, especially because it is a patch for the standard Magic system but isn't really worded that way. Instead it just applies to any "supernatural ability" and thus even when someone has paid a significant amount of points to do something... the Rule of 16 cracks down on them to prevent abuse that isn't happening and it doesn't address all the other balance issues of the standard Magic system. Not that it should have to per se, just it isn't like "Oh, as long as I use the Rule of 16, there won't be any balance issues from a mage focusing point investment into a particular spell versus a warrior doing the same with a particular weapon skill!" (as that kind of comparison seems to be what I read in most responses, including my own). We all know this has numerous issues, including cherry-picking examples (again, something I probably did >.>) and then having those fall apart. For example Quote:
If "save or die" is such a bad thing, the real solution is don't use it. Might be a pain in a different way, but find a different mechanic to handle these effects. Someone brought up Control Points; I don't know them but I know of them and what little I do know, that sounds like the best bet. I've sounded off on why even though the Rule of 16 is supposed to help me, I don't much care for it. I think smurf explains my dissatisfaction quite well, though probably didn't mean to: Quote:
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More important NPCs that aren't supposed to be easy to control have protection. If that stretches suspension of disbelief then I don't allow the ability in the first place or I find a mechanic for it that works.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) Last edited by Otaku; 01-14-2016 at 04:11 PM. |
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01-23-2016, 02:40 AM | #126 |
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
I know this sounds a bit weird, but I think the way the Rule of 16 works isn't just to give that ceiling so you can't over power others, but so you never ever have a guarantee. Which is strange, since even without Deceptive Attacks I can at least 'know' I'm going to hit with my sword once my skill is high enough (16 skill is 98.6%). Even though they can dodge, the numbers are still in my favor as a swordsman. Or gunner.
And why isn't the rule there for mundane powers? Pump all your points into Intimidation or another Influence skill and you have bad Mind Control that effectively can't be resisted. Stealth and you're badly Invisible (and for less points!). Body Language and you can madly read minds. With enough Bow skill, I can avoid my target rolling. Save-or-Dies are almost always limited enough to not even need this. Petrifying someone costs most of your FP (at least half on well built mages). And Powers require GM oversight. I know it's come up other places on this board, but switching this rule with 'defender always wins with a crit' is far more satisfying to me. I find letting crits affect contests only makes things better, not worse, and this is one of those times. Also, I decided to test it, both mathematically and in play. Save-or-Die caster goes through a dungeon by himself with thirty enemies and 25 skill, with varied defenses among enemies (mooks start at 10 and goes up to 16, with one enemy chosen at random having 25 defense). It doesn't make much of a change. And just takes longer for the GM to parse everything. If the problem is Save-or-Dies, then take a note from Heart Attack; it takes upwards of four minutes for them to actually die, and something as simple as First Aid can stop it (albeit not perfectly). Save-or-stop-fighting powers are far less scary and more useful. |
01-23-2016, 04:16 AM | #127 |
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Indiana
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
I vaguely remember the Rule of 16 being introduced back in, I think, the Compendium in 3e and we asked our GM if he was going to be invoking it and the answer was "No", partly because our characters had long ago been made up before the rule but also because it seemed a very artificial restriction on some types of characters to make them restricted to the point of near uselessness as player-characters compared to other types of characters.
"Hmm, that swordsman is coming at me to kill me. Sure would be nice if my spells actually worked right now and I wasn't in a handicap match. What's his handicap?" I think the one thing that makes me against it more than any other is that it doesn't work in reverse as far as I know. In other words, suppose I have a wizard or whatever with a skill of 14 at, say, mind control. I go up against a guy who has a Will of 20. So his effective resistance roll is 16? It should cut both ways. |
01-23-2016, 07:49 AM | #128 |
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
The rule of 16 nerfs ridiculously overpowered wizards and afflictors. If a gm wants to prevent ridiculously overpowered characters, why not simply outline guidelines during character creation?
Although the magic system has legacy features that make high skill levels efficient in a point-buy sort of way, a character concept with such high skill levels runs contrary to how GURPS describes real world individuals and shouldn't be allowed without an unusual background and a reputation and possibly enemies (I.e. One should not have a 25 skill death attack without having practiced it or it being their defining feature long enough that there will be those who know you limitations and want to exploit them) A character with a 25 skill level is probably the best at that skill in the world, possibly the greatest there will ever be. If they have a worldclass skill whose entire focus is to affect humans in a very specific way, To me, that means they shouldnt be thwarted because an unskilled human shrugs it off; and probably shouldnt be shrugg-off-able by anyone who hasn't been properly equipped through research, magical blessing, divine doodad, etc. The resistance mechanic is broken to begin with. It slows down gameplay. It encourages raw talent over skill by inflating the importance of generic and vague statistics while deflating the importance of a character's background and journey. The rule of 16 makes it worse. From the point if view of a player with a character who might be targetted by a resistable affliction, i want to be engaged in how to avoid the affects; i dont want resistance to be about "did i build my character with high enough uber stat and then did i win a contest of die rolls." Example: the gm starts a greek mythology game. I am playing a greek hero with divine heritage and so the character has some high stats, maybe a 16 health. When i go in against medusa with the 25 flesh to stone spell or affliction, i dont want it to be my health stat that saves me. That is incredibly dull. The medusa as the antagonist with a skill 25 instant kill ability will be a great dragon to fight to provide conflict at the right moment because i will play out the hero's journey... I will journey throughout the land, learning how to defeat the medusa, picking up tools and chekov's skills to defeat the medusa... In game terms, if i fight the monster with the 25 skill death attack before i am prepared, death or similar cost will be my consequence. Thankfully, someone or something with a 25 skill in death dealing will have a reputation. The gamesmaster must make it clear that to face the creature means certain death before they are ready. Now let us condider my playing the medusa instead. The gamemaster is running a slightly different game here obviously, but the same basic conditions apply. I am playing a creature whose instant death attack can only be stopped by a properly prepared hero. I can expect to turn to stone the unprepared, who should not get resistance rolls at all. I can expect that many will be aware of my limitations (again, a 25 skill means i'm famous) but in game terms that means those who arent turning to stone are facing my medusa blind. The medusa's journey, to be interesting, will also start with battles she wins easily, and with successive battles becoming more challenging until finally coming up against the prepared divinely equipped good choice making hero... From the hero's and the medusa's pc's point if view, the skill 25 instant kill petrification is an irresistable force to be overcome at the climax of a story, not because the hero is "divinely healthy" but because he has gone through a journey of discovery...and it is time for that journey to pay off!
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Villain's Round Table Last edited by LemmingLord; 01-23-2016 at 08:03 AM. |
01-23-2016, 08:35 AM | #129 |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
And that the distinction. If you rolled an equivalent of Dodge to avoid a spell or power instead of a quick contest, there'd be no point to the Rule of 16. It's an product of using the compare the margin of success rule but still wanting there to be a chance a foe can defend even if the attacker is really good. It probably isn't the best way to do that. Dodge roll equivalents based on Will would have worked better. Capping margin of success (e.g. no matter how good your roll, nobody's margin of success can exceed n, and ties at "n" go to the defense) would have a similar effect without the breakpoint recalculation for both parties having high scores. There are probably other methods, but the central feature is you have to make really high margins of success not be any better than just decent ones.
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01-23-2016, 10:36 AM | #130 | |
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Cincinnati, OH, USA
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Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?
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And it also rewards characters with high levels of skill by making their spells more reliable. Last edited by Emerald Cat; 01-23-2016 at 10:37 AM. Reason: Shortened the Quoted Material |
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