Song of Command & instruments

[restlessgriffin]

In Adventurers p. 17, the Speaking from Experience quotes Jag as saying roughly he can us Song of Command instead of mind control spells, as it is better since it doesn't exhaust him or require gestures and incantations. He says all thats needed is a "few casual notes" from his tin whistle!

Question: How is that possible? Song of Command, p 18 says victory means victim obeys verbal commands in any language he knows as long as you play without interruption. How do you play a tin whistle and give verbal commands. Song of Command seems incompatible with Jags bardic instrument of choice! Can you speak while playing a tin whistle?

BTW, does Song of Command allow giving orders to an entire group at once? To me it seems RAW don't allow this. Now if the do, then I need to re-evaluate my view on Bards being relatively weak and problematic to play.

Note: Song of Terror seems to be problematic as it impacts your party members also unless they're deaf, wear earplugs or all have Unfazeable advantage. I guess high levels of Fearlessness works too.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Question: How is that possible? Song of Command, p 18 says victory means victim obeys verbal commands in any language he knows as long as you play without interruption. How do you play a tin whistle and give verbal commands. Song of Command seems incompatible with Jags bardic instrument of choice! Can you speak while playing a tin whistle?

Adventurers page 112, "Woodwind. Bamboo flute, tin whistle, or similar. You cannot speak while playing. Two-handed. $40, 1 lb."

I would say no, Jag cannot do what he claims to be able to do. He must sing.

BTW, does Song of Command allow giving orders to an entire group at once? To me it seems RAW don't allow this. Now if the do, then I need to re-evaluate my view on Bards being relatively weak and problematic to play.

Song of Command is clearly intended to work on groups per the clause "-1 per slave already under your control (you can add one new victim to the song per turn);". I see nothing in Song of Command that suggests to me that you cannot control groups by issuing verbal commands to the group, e.g. "arrest that man!" In fact, controlling groups would be fairly useless if you could not command them as groups.

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Note: Song of Terror seems to be problematic as it impacts your party members also unless they're deaf, wear earplugs or all have Unfazeable advantage. I guess high levels of Fearlessness works too.

You can also cast Bravery on your whole party for 1 hour for 2 FP, if you first squeeze everybody into the same hex. Note that Bards can learn Bravery. This is much, much better than high levels of Fearlessness because Fearlessness still fails on a roll of 14+ (per Exploits page 10).

It's possible that Resist Sound might also work against Song of Terror--check with your GM.

Pro tip: an elven bard can learn Concussion, and if you precast Resist Sound on everybody in the party then Concussion becomes a fantastic spell, not just for the Bard but for any Wizards in the party too. This nicely covers a Bardic weakness, namely the issue of what to do in a dungeon crawl when fighting Unfazeable monsters immune to mind control? Hurling AoE grenades for HT-3 stun that friendlies are immune to is one great answer; to a lesser extent casting strategic Magery 0 spells like Haste and Darkness is also a good use of time. (Wading into melee or firing a bow is also an option against weak foes but it's nice to have better options.)

Note also that Bardic Songs do not take penalties from spells "on", so in some ways bards are even better at buffing than wizards and clerics are. Even with six or seven spells on and effective spell skill of only 9, a bard can still Mind Control or Rapier Wit at full skill, whereas a wizard's Charm spell would be very anemic at skill 9.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Adventurers page 112, "Woodwind. Bamboo flute, tin whistle, or similar. You cannot speak while playing. Two-handed. $40, 1 lb."

I would say no, Jag cannot do what he claims to be able to do. He must sing.

That's unfortunate as it really limits the viability of many instruments. I'd really like to see greater variety and really liked that Jag didn't just use the traditional lute. This also means no mute Bards. No pied piper style Bards. What a shame. Disappointing.

I'd also love to see magic users that can spell cast using dance. I'd want to fit them under the Bard template.

Song of Command is clearly intended to work on groups per the clause "-1 per slave already under your control (you can add one new victim to the song per turn);". I see nothing in Song of Command that suggests to me that you cannot control groups by issuing verbal commands to the group, e.g. "arrest that man!" In fact, controlling groups would be fairly useless if you could not command them as groups.

While that's the way I'd like it to be, I don't think that is according to RAW. The modifiers seems to imply you need to do targets one at a time. The main text also seems to indicate this. "You can control the mind of someone" (singular). ... "you can add one new victim to the song per turn".

Personally, I'd prefer being able to act on an entire group. Say there are 10 enemies, you chose to target 5 of them to limit the negative modifiers. You go into Song of Command and order them to "drop your weapons". So the Bard is at -5 (-1 for each targeted enemy). Any of them that fail the quick contest will drop their weapons. Bardic Talent provides a bonus to the Bard.

RAW seems to indicate you could only order on person and then one other each turn with cumulative -1 for each person still under control. So if you ordered " drop your weapon and leave it on the ground" that could be done one at a time.

can also cast Bravery on your whole party for 1 hour for 2 FP, if you first squeeze everybody into the same hex. Note that Bards can learn Bravery. This is much, much better than high levels of Fearlessness because Fearlessness still fails on a roll of 14+ (per Exploits page 10).

I did not think Bards could learn Bravery as I did see any reference to Bard in the spell. Hopefully you are correct and I'm misinterpreting that. BTW, It would also help with Druid since I would like them to have dull access to all Elemental spells, not just ones listing druidic.

It's possible that Resist Sound might also work against Song of Terror--check with your GM.

Pro tip: an elven bard can learn Concussion, and if you precast Resist Sound on everybody in the party then Concussion becomes a fantastic spell, not just for the Bard but for any Wizards in the party too. This nicely covers a Bardic weakness, namely the issue of what to do in a dungeon crawl when fighting Unfazeable monsters immune to mind control? Hurling AoE grenades for HT-3 stun that friendlies are immune to is one great answer; to a lesser extent casting strategic Magery 0 spells like Haste and Darkness is also a good use of time. (Wading into melee or firing a bow is also an option against weak foes but it's nice to have better options.)

Concussion still causes damage.. The sound component only impacts stun effect. However, I see your point on using the spell vs Unfazable opponents. I'll make a note on that. Thanks.

Note also that Bardic Songs do not take penalties from spells "on", so in some ways bards are even better at buffing than wizards and clerics are. Even with six or seven spells on and effective spell skill of only 9, a bard can still Mind Control or Rapier Wit at full skill, whereas a wizard's Charm spell would be very anemic at skill 9.[/QUOTE]

Noted.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

While that's the way I'd like it to be, I don't think that is according to RAW. The modifiers seems to imply you need to do targets one at a time. The main text also seems to indicate this. "You can control the mind of someone" (singular). ... "you can add one new victim to the song per turn".

Personally, I'd prefer being able to act on an entire group. Say there are 10 enemies, you chose to target 5 of them to limit the negative modifiers. You go into Song of Command and order them to "drop your weapons". So the Bard is at -5 (-1 for each targeted enemy). Any of them that fail the quick contest will drop their weapons. Bardic Talent provides a bonus to the Bard.

You add them individually to the song, but once they're added you just give them verbal commands, no extra contests required (unless you order them to do something against their values). If you have six guards under your control and you want them to arrest somebody, I see no indication that you'd need to say, "Bob, arrest that man. Sam, arrest that man. Pete, arrest that man..."

RAW seems to indicate you could only order on person and then one other each turn with cumulative -1 for each person still under control. So if you ordered " drop your weapon and leave it on the ground" that could be done one at a time.

You take control of Bob, Sam, Pete, etc. one at a time but after that they obey your verbal orders until you lose control.

I did not think Bards could learn Bravery as I did see any reference to Bard in the spell. Hopefully you are correct and I'm misinterpreting that.

Bardic Talent lets you learn Sense Foes, which lets you learn Sense Emotions, which allows Fear, which allows (wizardly) Bravery.

BTW, It would also help with Druid since I would like them to have dull access to all Elemental spells, not just ones listing druidic.

The list of druid spells on Spells page 7 is complete, but of course as GM you can tinker with it.

Concussion still causes damage..

Yeah but it's negligible: d6/(3*distance from concussion). Just chuck it a few yards away and damage even to DR 0 delvers will be zero.

Basically there's no point in using Concussion for damage except maybe against Diffuse foes like toxifiers. It's mostly a stunning spell.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

You add them individually to the song, but once they're added you just give them verbal commands, no extra contests required (unless you order them to do something against their values). If you have six guards under your control and you want them to arrest somebody, I see no indication that you'd need to say, "Bob, arrest that man. Sam, arrest that man. Pete, arrest that man..."

In some ways thats worse. So if I want those 6 guards to drop their weapons. I need to add them one by one at -1 per enemy. And only AFTER adding the last one I can give the order. Fine once control is established on all of them. Bad otherwise. So it takes around 7-8 seconds to take over 6 guards and order them all to drop there weapons. In the meantime any of them free from control can attack you. I'm not clear on what cations those you have control of can take.

You take control of Bob, Sam, Pete, etc. one at a time but after that they obey your verbal orders until you lose control.

So basically, you've gotta wait 7-8 seconds before saying "arrest that man". Better hope the guy being arrested is clueless, otherwise he can just runaway.

Again it would be much better if this were an AoE capability that could be used simultaneously on multiple targets to start.

Bardic Talent lets you learn Sense Foes, which lets you learn Sense Emotions, which allows Fear, which allows (wizardly) Bravery.

Any Kromm or PtB ruling on that. I see prereq Wizardly: Magery 1, but no mention of Bardic anything so I don't think Bards are allowed the Bravery spell. Honestly, I'd prefer it be allowed to Bards. Bravery as you point out is great to use before Song of Terror. I just don't think its allowed per RAW.

The list of druid spells on Spells page 7 is complete, but of course as GM you can tinker with it.

Yup. Fairly disappointing.

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Any Kromm or PtB ruling on that. I see prereq Wizardly: Magery 1, but no mention of Bardic anything so I don't think Bards are allowed the Bravery spell. Honestly, I'd prefer it be allowed to Bards. Bravery as you point out is great to use before Song of Terror. I just don't think its allowed per RAW.

The "Bardic" Spells box on p. 7 of spells makes it clear that Bards can cast wizardly spells in the the Communication and Empathy, Knowledge, Mind Control, and Sound colleges, and Bardic Talent replaces Magery.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

In some ways thats worse. So if I want those 6 guards to drop their weapons. I need to add them one by one at -1 per enemy. And only AFTER adding the last one I can give the order. Fine once control is established on all of them. Bad otherwise. So it takes around 7-8 seconds to take over 6 guards and order them all to drop there weapons. In the meantime any of them free from control can attack you. I'm not clear on what cations those you have control of can take.

You can start giving orders on round 1, after you take control of the first guard. Of course, that might give the game away to the other guards. If you wait until round 8ish when you control all of them, there might not be anything which makes the uncontrolled guards realize they need to attack you. It's a tough decision, but you don't have to wait.

So basically, you've gotta wait 7-8 seconds before saying "arrest that man". Better hope the guy being arrested is clueless, otherwise he can just runaway.

You can take control of one of the guards and tell him to "arrest that man" in only one second. But if you took control of a whole squad of guards ten minutes ago, you can tell them all to "arrest that man!" right now.

Edit: or you could take control of the guy you want arrested and make him wait patiently until the guards arrest him.

Again it would be much better if this were an AoE capability that could be used simultaneously on multiple targets to start.

Yes, it would be better, and more expensive. As GM you can of course tinker to your heart's delight, but making Song of Command into an AoE should probably boost its cost to 80+ points at least.

Any Kromm or PtB ruling on that. I see prereq Wizardly: Magery 1, but no mention of Bardic anything so I don't think Bards are allowed the Bravery spell. Honestly, I'd prefer it be allowed to Bards. Bravery as you point out is great to use before Song of Terror. I just don't think its allowed per RAW.

I don't see any "Magery 1" requirement. Where are you getting that? In my books Bravery says Prerequisites: Clerical: PI 1. Wizardly: Fear.

Then Fear says Prerequisites: Wizardly: Sense Emotion.

Then Sense Emotion says Prerequisites: Wizardly: Sense Foes.

Then Sense Foes says Prerequisites: Wizardly: Magery 0 or Bardic Talent.

Where do you see Magery 1?

P.S. Also, from Spells page 7:

“Bardic” Spells
Bards cast wizardly spells. For the most part, these work normally:
• Prerequisite spells are unchanged.
• Energy Reserve (Magical) can be tapped for energy.
• Mana is required to cast, and has its usual effects.
There are a few differences, though:
• Bardic Talent (Adventurers, p. 17) replaces Magery. The same
level is needed as a prerequisite, and it gives a permanent bonus to
spells, but it can’t sense magic items or mana levels.
• Bards are limited to the Communication and Empathy, Knowledge, Mind Control, and Sound colleges.
• Bards must sing to cast, even from scrolls.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

In Adventurers p. 17, the Speaking from Experience quotes Jag as saying roughly he can us Song of Command instead of mind control spells, as it is better since it doesn't exhaust him or require gestures and incantations. He says all thats needed is a "few casual notes" from his tin whistle!

Question: How is that possible? Song of Command, p 18 says victory means victim obeys verbal commands in any language he knows as long as you play without interruption. How do you play a tin whistle and give verbal commands. Song of Command seems incompatible with Jags bardic instrument of choice! Can you speak while playing a tin whistle?

At our table we've always ruled that bards with wind instruments can play with brief pauses to sing commands. We interpret the "without interruption" to mean that the bard is engaged in the musical casting with their full attention.

[sjmdw45]

Another potential synergy: Song of Command + Song of the Wild might allow you to mind-control animals, since "Victory means your victim obeys your verbal commands in any language he knows for as long as you play without interruption" and "You can make your song understood to animals, who may answer you back in song of their own". It would not be unreasonable for this to work.

On the other hand, it does step on the druid's toes a little bit, and a DM could argue that understanding the meaning of your song and understanding a language are not the same thing. Personally I think the overlap is not a problem (after all, Swashbuckler Rapier Wit overlaps a bit with Song of Humiliation too), and that understanding the bard's intent is the key factor, which Song of the Wild clearly allows you to do. As GM I would allow that combo.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Another potential synergy: Song of Command + Song of the Wild might allow you to mind-control animals, since "Victory means your victim obeys your verbal commands in any language he knows for as long as you play without interruption" and "You can make your song understood to animals, who may answer you back in song of their own". It would not be unreasonable for this to work.

On the other hand, it does step on the druid's toes a little bit, and a DM could argue that understanding the meaning of your song and understanding a language are not the same thing. Personally I think the overlap is not a problem (after all, Swashbuckler Rapier Wit overlaps a bit with Song of Humiliation too), and that understanding the bard's intent is the key factor, which Song of the Wild clearly allows you to do. As GM I would allow that combo.

Interesting. Doesn't sound legal though since I'd think you would end with completing one song and beginning another. On the other hand I do like the idea, even though I think it may not be RAW legal. Honestly, I'm all for power ups for the Bard. Combinations seem like they could be really fun. Out of genre but this would be a song mashup!

EDIT: Even if this isn't necessarily RAW, I like it. This will allow a Bard to communicate and control animals, though it takes time and effort. I'm also in favor of "multi-professions" so it would be good to have a Druid/Bard. I really think it would be cool to have Druid/Bard "pied-piper" Control swarms of rats or bats. Use Druid abilities to locate animals and use animal handling capabilties.