[Space/Thaumatology] Stargate: Fantasy - Worldbuilding thread

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Varyon

"It's magic" was basically the explanation given by most of the locals for all the advanced technology SG1 encountered, and yet in each case they searched for - and came up with - scientific (or at least pseudoscientific, Stargate was heavy on the superscience) explanations for all of it.

Two things:
1) Most of the locals were either TL3 and their claims of magic were already suspect or they had something to gain claiming that it is magic (i.e. Gouald who used "miracles" to prove their godlyness, Ancients who wanted people to stay away from their advanced technology.) Industrially advanced Dwarves have seemingly nothing to gain claiming their boilers are powered by magic and obviously know how they work, so their claims seem more likely to be taken seriously.

2) Stargate continually came up with explanations and then had them proven in some way (if I recall correctly usually because insight in how something worked let them disable it or whatever.) Here, whatever scientistic explanation you come up with is either wrong (and gets proven wrong) or squares with the local's fantastic explanation. You might not think much of, "Well the orb of endless flame heats.tje steam back up", but if the people claiming that have a whole system making other predictions that have been proven true, their explanations start seeming more credible.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Two things:
1) Industrially advanced Dwarves have seemingly nothing to gain claiming their boilers are powered by magic and obviously know how they work, so their claims seem more likely to be taken seriously.

2) Stargate continually came up with explanations and then had them proven in some way (if I recall correctly usually because insight in how something worked let them disable it or whatever.) Here, whatever scientistic explanation you come up with is either wrong (and gets proven wrong) or squares with the local's fantastic explanation. Y.

.The dvergar will be using some sort of technical jargon in their own language to explain how their stuff works and it's unlikely that they'll be saying "It's Magic!" and just shrugging their shoulders. It'll have a TL7 (or higher) level of complexity and is unlikely to resemble Earthly TL Occultism.

For the second, how is Stargate's scientific speculation about "zero point energy" going to get proved wrong? As the great sage E'Kral'c once said 'Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguioshable from technology."

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

.The dvergar will be using some sort of technical jargon in their own language to explain how their stuff works and it's unlikely that they'll be saying "It's Magic!" and just shrugging their shoulders. It'll have a TL7 (or higher) level of complexity and is unlikely to resemble Earthly TL Occultism.

Yeah. A lot of species might have different words for magical engineering, innate powers, Path/Book Magic, and so on. I'm thinking that the Dvergar do something like that, and so do the Frolechi, and they're getting their first lessons in the Dvergar language (which is mutually understandable with Icelandic, but probably at one or two steps worse, and with some words that one side or the other doesn't have) from G'Annan, who would naturally translate e.g. the Dvergar word/phrase for 'magical engineering' or 'material magic' into English with whatever word or phrase the SGC has assigned to the Frolechi word for same, rather than as 'magic.'

EDIT: I'll count up the votes properly late (hopefully after getting some sleep), but I'm seeing a trend toward 'Advanced Steampunk.' Will probably also post a new Question then.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Two things:
1) Most of the locals were either TL3 and their claims of magic were already suspect or they had something to gain claiming that it is magic (i.e. Gouald who used "miracles" to prove their godlyness, Ancients who wanted people to stay away from their advanced technology.) Industrially advanced Dwarves have seemingly nothing to gain claiming their boilers are powered by magic and obviously know how they work, so their claims seem more likely to be taken seriously.

2) Stargate continually came up with explanations and then had them proven in some way (if I recall correctly usually because insight in how something worked let them disable it or whatever.) Here, whatever scientistic explanation you come up with is either wrong (and gets proven wrong) or squares with the local's fantastic explanation. You might not think much of, "Well the orb of endless flame heats.tje steam back up", but if the people claiming that have a whole system making other predictions that have been proven true, their explanations start seeming more credible.

You are assuming the SG teams (and SGC in general) will be in contact with dvergar engineers. If we're going with the dwarves more-or-less the way I suggested them, SGC is only going to be in contact with dvergar merchants and possibly some other layfolk, at least until they build up enough trust (which will either happen after SGC has figured out that magic is real in an unrelated incident, or will be because the GM is ready for the big reveal to occur). Those aren't the people who know the intricacies of how their magitech works. When the science teams are trying to work out what it is that powers the boilers spread out through settlements, they'll be looking at something like "Well, from what we've gathered from talking to the locals, they're powered by spheres somewhere between 200 and 500 cm in diameter, weighing somewhere between 5 and 30 kg, and generating heat in the gigawatt range. They claim the spheres never need refueling, instead relying on ambient "mana," but the boilers are cleaned once a dvergar month, or about every six Earth weeks, so they probably get secretly refueled at that time. Any ideas?"

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The dvergar will be using some sort of technical jargon in their own language to explain how their stuff works and it's unlikely that they'll be saying "It's Magic!" and just shrugging their shoulders. It'll have a TL7 (or higher) level of complexity and is unlikely to resemble Earthly TL Occultism.

Well, yes obviously they're going to be using their own jargon. But at the same time I don't think the Terrans are going to be taking the language apart on first principles. They apparently have Icelandic to use as a starting point, and they have the desert elves to help there too. When G'annan translates the layman's explanation of the boiler heater, I can easily see him adding, "You know, like the wind blade." The mention of any kind of equivalency is going to create the sense something is very strange about the Dwarven technology.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

For the second, how is Stargate's scientific speculation about "zero point energy" going to get proved wrong? As the great sage E'Kral'c once said 'Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguishable from technology."

Well that's the other side of the coin there. If they just create (or accept) a non-fantastic explanation, the reveal just doesn't happen. The Terrans develop a scientistic explanation quickly, at which point they continue describing everything in that worldview, hopping over the valley of doubt. I can easily see an scientistic worldview producing explanations like, "Well you see, [technobabble] organ [technobabble] energy fields [technobabble] fire balls. Now when [technobabble] energy fields are strong [technobabble] vestigial organ [technobabble] fire balls."

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I'm thinking that the Dvergar do something like that, and so do the Frolechi, and they're getting their first lessons in the Dvergar language from G'Annan, who would naturally translate e.g. the Dvergar word/phrase for 'magical engineering' or 'material magic' into English with whatever word or phrase the SGC has assigned to the Frolechi word for same, rather than as 'magic.'

Sure. But I think the Frolechi need to appear to be mistaken about this, or the Terrans aren't going to ever need a word for magic. "Ah, you call it [magic] but you are mistaken. It is [magical engineering]."

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Sure. But I think the Frolechi need to appear to be mistaken about this, or the Terrans aren't going to ever need a word for magic. "Ah, you call it [magic] but you are mistaken. It is [magical engineering]."

G'annan, SGC's liaison with the Frolechi, is a professional spy. I don't think he's going to give up the Frolechi secrets immediately to SGC. He presumably starts on a very friendly footing with them (he's the expy for Teal'c, who held at the very least SG1 and General Hammond in high regard), but he's still going to be cautious. SGC will need to not have access to Frolechi's magical engineers either for the secret to remain such - they'll be working under the assumption that G'annan is either superstitiously unaware of how his weapon actually functions or is purposefully obfuscating the truth when he claims it utilizes magic, and they won't have the option of doing a full analysis of it to figure out how it "actually" functions (because he won't let them, because doing so would risk destroying it and it's a family heirloom, etc). The Frolechi are certainly a possible vehicle for SGC to figure out all the talk of magic isn't just a load of woo, as are the Dvergar, as well as the various hostiles they encounter; the GM will need to be careful about what magitech artifacts the players manage to acquire to keep the facade going (as I suggested previously, if they can't get reliable access to them, and full analysis will damage/break the rare items they do acquire, it could potentially be kept up for a while).

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by Varyon

G'annan, SGC's liaison with the Frolechi, is a professional spy. I don't think he's going to give up the Frolechi secrets immediately to SGC.

Well I don't agree that G'annan saying that a the wind sword and what the Dwarves have are both based on the same principles is a huge secret. It'd be like the NSA saying that their data center and a Tesla Roadster are both use electricity, or the US in the 40s/50s saying that Atomic Bombs and Nuclear Power Plants apply nuclear fission. It's a convenient example to explain something to someone totally uninformed.

Originally Posted by Varyon

SGC will need to not have access to Frolechi's magical engineers either for the secret to remain such - they'll be working under the assumption that G'annan is either superstitiously unaware of how his weapon actually functions or is purposefully obfuscating the truth when he claims it utilizes magic

Yeah, I agree there. But like if a Frolechi showed me a magic sword, and said "It's magic!" I probably would take it with a big grain of salt. If we then went to the Dvergar and he claimed that the Dvergar's magic fired boilers were magic, that grain would get significantly smaller. On the other hand, if he claimed the Dvergar's magic cannons (that are limited superscience instead of demolishing mountains or something) were magic, I think the grain would get bigger. I think things would work best here if you ensure the grain of doubt gets bigger and bigger.

[Prince Charon]

OK, it's been long enough that I'm probably not interrupting the discussion:

Important Regional Cultures Question III

What sort of technology do the Eldritch folk (Cosmic Horror Elves) seem to use?

1. Hardcore Biopunk (TL(1+9)^ or (2+8)^, focusing on bio-tech; the horror aspects will be fairly obvious to the humans)

2. Neoclassical Biopunk (TL4^ in general, but around (4+5)^ in biotechnology; horror aspects are a bit less obvious than #1, but not hard to find; the distinction between this and Renaissance Biopunk is in styles and culture, rather than technology)

3. Steampunk Gothic (TL(5+X)^, with extensive alchemy; emphasis on the 'dark satanic mills' and such)

4. Sabrepunk (TL(3+1)^ or so, but emphasizing material science and alchemy, rather than mechanics; for this and #5, the horror is well-hidden, but very much present)

5. Crystal Spires and Togas (TL10^+, with tech that involves crystals a lot)

6. Something else (please specify).

Please remember to include the number(s) of your preferred option(s) when you vote.

*******

Answer: 5 has four or five votes, 1 has three votes, 6a has two votes, and both 3 and 6b have one vote each.

Thus, the Crystal Spires and Togas group are the dominant faction, and there's a smaller, less powerful faction of Cosmic Horror Elves that went in for Hardcore Biopunk. Which one the PCs meet first is likely to vary from game to game.

[TGLS]

Are the Eldritch folk supposed to be dark (but not necessarily evil), evil (but not necessarily dark), both, or neither?

[ericthered]

#1, #5, and #6a: both #1 and #5, run by two branches of the species who each hate each other.