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Old 08-26-2014, 12:28 PM   #31
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Specifically, it's worth getting Telegraphically stabbed in the Vitals by someone who Waited.
Since you know that your opponent is Waiting, why would you AoA? In practice having waiting foes against ATR, just seems to force the ATR character to choose some other maneuver (unless of course it has really high DR or something). Am I missing something here?
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:30 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

Oh, that last post brings up a point. To get a back attack (rather than a runaround) you need to start your turn behind the victim, not just the particular maneuver in which you make the attack. Right?
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Assuming that anybody remembers that Wait even exists. The Watcher almost inflicted a TPK, until one of the players finally tried this.
I honestly don't think I'm capable of getting my head around that kind of mechanical unawareness.

I know it happens, but it doesn't make any sense to me.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:34 PM   #33
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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I'm curious, was there a reason you didn't use Compartmentalized Mind for that? The only reason I could think of would be if the tails could throw spells. Even then Compartmentalized Mind and Extra Attack with only for spells limitations would be cheaper.
Bingo. It was mostly so he could throw more spells per round. Also, he could build up more Missile Spells as well, (which I don't think Extra Attack would allow you to do).

Also, he got them pretty cheap as it was. With being limited only to casting spells, plus the fact that they were gadgets, he only ended up paying 20 points per tail anyway.

Not sure if I would have let him get away with cheaper than that!
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:37 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Since you know that your opponent is Waiting, why would you AoA? In practice having waiting foes against ATR, just seems to force the ATR character to choose some other maneuver (unless of course it has really high DR or something). Am I missing something here?
No, that's probably right, assuming the ATR character correctly analyzes the threat.

However, you can both keep them from using AoA and keep them from benefiting from the AoD-at-the-end gimmick, which are two of the top things that people always, always talk about ATR letting you do. (Well, assuming the positions are workable.)
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:41 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Specifically, it's worth getting Telegraphically stabbed in the Vitals by someone who Waited.
The lesson here is: if you have ATR, change your strategy and don't AoA in reach of anyone who is just standing there, seemingly waiting for you to hit them. They are probably Waiting for something else entirely.

If the GM rules that Wait allows the character waiting to distinguish between an AoA and any other attack. Make regular attacks if anyone is Waiting for you to make an AOA, then they don't get their attack. If the GM rules the Wait-er can't tell the difference and has to trigger the Wait after any attack, make your attacks defensive until the wait is triggered, or you run out of attacks. You still get to make your attack(s) more safely, and still get the All Out Defense bonus against everyone else who didn't wait. If they all wait, back up and use a ranged weapon. If you have friends, opponents waiting for you will give them openings.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Are we starting with the GURPS rules' crunch or the concepts that spawned the Advantages?
The concept behind ETS is mostly 'ultra-fast reaction', sort of Super-CR, and the concept behind ATR is mostly 'does everything faster'.

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Enhanced Time Sense seems to take one very limited aspect of Accelerated Time Rate; perception (not to be confused with the Attribute) and processing. You can't move any faster (save where your improved perception would allow your normal speed to still react faster than someone else who is "still processing"), but you do get that processing time. The lack of affecting the Concentrate maneuver may boil down to what concerns me about Enhanced Time Sense; it doesn't grant a specific amount of additional processing time.
The term 'processing' is very ambiguous. Using Body Language to figure out a person's emotional state is processing. But ETS does not let you get the benefit of Extra Time Spent for that.

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Of course there is one other disconnect; Enhanced Time Sense automatically puts you ahead of those without Enhanced Time Sense in turn order (when such a thing is relevant). That... kind of contradicts how it isn't supposed to increase your speed; does it matter if I am perceiving and processing faster if my move is 1 and my opponent's move is 20?
There is no contradiction. ETS allows you to act earlier, which is only relevant at the beginning of the combat, when it is figured which one of the combatants became the first to act. It does not make you act faster - you still get one Manoeuvre per second with ETS. You get 2 per second with ATR.

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On the other hand, isn't this better discussed when we get to ETS?
This is the reason why I brought up the idea of having an ATR+ETS thread. Too often the two are intertwined in the global subconsciousness, and I guess consciousness too. People tend to compare ETS to ATR and vice versa, at the very least. Occasionally people try to rulez-lawyer ATR benefits out of ETS too.
I suppose I could just drop the topic if I'm ruining other people's fun.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:47 PM   #37
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
This is the reason why I brought up the idea of having an ATR+ETS thread. Too often the two are intertwined in the global subconsciousness, and I guess consciousness too. People tend to compare ETS to ATR and vice versa, at the very least. Occasionally people try to rulez-lawyer ATR benefits out of ETS too.
I suppose I could just drop the topic if I'm ruining other people's fun.
I have some stuff to talk about ETS that isn't really related to ATR. I'd rather not derail this thread.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:49 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The big recurrent issue with ATR is that we keep getting people bringing up how it would be impossible for normal speed people to defend against it...even though these same normal speed people are making dodge rolls against guns.
against guns, not bullets.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:50 PM   #39
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
No, that's probably right, assuming the ATR character correctly analyzes the threat.

However, you can both keep them from using AoA and keep them from benefiting from the AoD-at-the-end gimmick, which are two of the top things that people always, always talk about ATR letting you do. (Well, assuming the positions are workable.)
I think the point is that the character with ATR is the one in the driver's seat. If they react appropriately, they keep a big advantage, even if it isn't exactly AoA then AoD.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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against guns, not bullets.
The ATR person isn't moving nearly as fast as a bullet.
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