Melee combat failed success rolls.

[atuin]

Hello guys,

One thing that's been bothering me about melee combat in GURPS is the two success rolls necessary in order to hit: A success roll to hit by the attacker, and a defense roll from the defender. According to the rules, if the attacker doesn't pass the to-hit roll, then he misses. But what does this mean in "real life"? Does it mean that the attacker swings or thrusts his weapon aimlessly, and it just passes over the defender's head, or body, or whatever? Seems odd that someone standing a yard or less away would miss 50% of the time out of clumsiness. Or perhaps it just means that the blow was so bad the attacker didn't have to worry about making a huge effort to protect himself (ie: spending the effort to make a defense roll)?

Does anyone have a different take on this? Note that I am only talking about melee combat. Ranged combat works fine with this method.

Thanks in advance.

[The Wrathchild]

IIRC it is also thought to include those blows that do not connect solidly, even if they are on target. edit - actually, no - see Kromm further below.

Also, remember that this is the chance while retaining the ability to defend. It's easy enough to hit if you All-Out (Determined), or in the case of using the Martial Arts, using Telegraphic Strikes.

The interpretation would often be that what unskilled brawlers are really doing IRL is trade All-Out Attacks, with 90% chance of hitting, roughly. Using the MA rules this might be seen as Telegraphic Committed Attacks.

Retaining defence is more complicated as much more body stuff needs to be coordinated.

[zoncxs]

all of the above, a failed "to hit" roll can mean anything the GM or player wants, miss judged the distance and came up short, hesitated, swung wide, etc.

you see it happen A LOT in real life, just look at most MMA fights or street fights.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by atuin

One thing that's been bothering me about melee combat in GURPS is the two success rolls necessary in order to hit: A success roll to hit by the attacker, and a defense roll from the defender. According to the rules, if the attacker doesn't pass the to-hit roll, then he misses. But what does this mean in "real life"? Does it mean that the attacker swings or thrusts his weapon aimlessly, and it just passes over the defender's head, or body, or whatever? Seems odd that someone standing a yard or less away would miss 50% of the time out of clumsiness. Or perhaps it just means that the blow was so bad the attacker didn't have to worry about making a huge effort to protect himself (ie: spending the effort to make a defense roll)?

To start with, let's look at an untrained person rolling straight DX and defending only with Dodge. DX is 10; Dodge is 8.

Now, what's going on with that roll is that they are trying to hit the other person, but they are also trying not to be hit! So they're being a little cautious, not throwing themselves wholly into the attack. They could easily fall short as a result. If they went for an all-out attack, they would get +4 to hit, 14 or less, and would hit about 90% of the time—but they also would have no defense; they would have left themselves open to the other person's attack.

There are also the Telegraphic Attack rules. You could say you've lowered your chance to hit by NOT telegraphing your attack. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[gilbertocarlos]

Also means attacks that you couldn't find an opening and simply aren't made. Most untrained people don't attack every second in a combat.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Also means attacks that you couldn't find an opening and simply aren't made. Most untrained people don't attack every second in a combat.

Or even trained people. A missed deceptive attack could just be a failed fake, and the master doesn't bother to follow it up.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Also means attacks that you couldn't find an opening and simply aren't made.

Mostly this. You failed at your roll to capitalize on an opening and/or seize the initiative, so you stood there doing nothing but defending. You can fix this by increasing your aggression (All-Out Attack (Determined) for +4, at the cost of giving your enemy an opening), falling back on textbook attacks when there's no opening (Telegraphic Attack for +4, at the price of attacking directly into your enemy's strongest defense), or learning to fight better (improve your skill, at the cost of many hours spent in the dojo, gym, kwoon, or whatever).

Missed attack rolls aren't blows that hit with insufficient force. Too many things in GURPS (Melee spells, Contact Agents, etc.) rely on a mere touch for that to be a good ruling. Blows that connect weakly are things like successful attack rolls met by unarmed parries that prevent all damage*, and successful attack rolls met by failed defense rolls where the ensuing damage roll fails to penetrate DR.

—

* It's safe to assume that in an unarmed fight, not all punches and kicks stopped by unarmed parries are warded off or blocked. Most are the blows you see sport fighters landing by the dozen in a match. A skilled fighter rolls with (not Roll with Blow – the realistic version), turns from, or otherwise minimizes the damage of these; his efforts count as a GURPS parry. These cases do result in contact under the rules.

[JP42]

There are alternate rules in a Pyramid (number escapes me at the moment) for calling a miss by 1 a graze (perhaps causing one point of damage, or some other calculation) or a miss by 1 or 2 a hesitation - you don't even swing, don't take the shot, don't waste the ammo, etc.

[jacobmuller]

I like this:
How come I know when I don’t have to defend?
It's important not to imagine that the defender is standing still and only reacting to a direct and successful attack. This creates a bizarre scene where you know the attack is going to miss and just stand there, and the attacker is whacking at the air beside you in an utterly inept manner.
Just because an attack "missed" doesn't mean you aren't defending. It just means the attack was clumsy enough that any sort of defending was minor and required so little effort that it didn't consume your active defence. It only counts as an active defence if the attack was successful and therefore took enough effort to deplete your defences.
Missing, in the chaos of battle, often means that you failed to anticipate your opponent’s movements and adjust to them, and ended up attacking somewhere he wasn't, grazing his shield or putting your attack where it could be easily and effortlessly deflected. In practice the enemy is moving about (dodging), hiding behind his shield (blocking) and trying to brush aside your attacks (parrying) the whole time.

I like to hang on to quotes but somehow always manage to lose who from:(

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Missing, in the chaos of battle, often means that you failed to anticipate your opponent’s movements and adjust to them, and ended up attacking somewhere he wasn't, grazing his shield or putting your attack where it could be easily and effortlessly deflected. In practice the enemy is moving about (dodging), hiding behind his shield (blocking) and trying to brush aside your attacks (parrying) the whole time.

jumping around like that is part of the attack maneuver. If you don't do this its called an all out attack, and when attacking doing something stupid and reckless like that you can telegraphic attack them for a pretty good chance at a hit.