High Skill Vs Talent

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth

Isn't there a rule that skills known only at default level lack the specials you would have if you put points in it (even if it's only 1pt)?

Maybe it's wise the describe the skills he only knows at default what they actually do for him (based upon the skill it defaults from).

That is correct:

Originally Posted by Basic Set page 173

Regardless of your default skill level, you do not get the special benefits of a skill – especially combat bonuses such as improved damage, special defenses, and unpenalized off-hand use – when you use a skill at default. To enjoy these benefits, you must spend at least one point on the skill.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

You don't understand why IQ! is disliked?

Let's start with it being a 10 point raise to over 270 different skills... yes, I know IQ is just a 20 point 'talent' for over 270 skills... but at least it's 20 points!

There are reasons why in my non-DF games I've separated out Per and Will and don't allow IQ to go above 16.

I don't so much like it as believe it's required to make most realistic smart people. But it's only a problem if you rigidly follow disad limits. I don't think many GMs and players actually do that, so it's not really a problem.
But I'm sorry for taking the accidental bait again with this thread derailment.

[AlexanderHowl]

Why hate on IQ and not DX? DX effects nearly as many skills and many of those skills are combat skills that mean the difference between life and death. It also influences Basic Speed, which determines Basic Move and Initiative, so it is arguably the key attribute in the majority of GURPS games.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Why hate on IQ and not DX?

I hate on DX! as well. Also I limit all stats in my game to 16, so it's not like I'm just picking on IQ.

DX effects nearly as many skills and many of those skills are combat skills that mean the difference between life and death. It also influences Basic Speed, which determines Basic Move and Initiative, so it is arguably the key attribute in the majority of GURPS games.

In my games DX skills and IQ skills come in at roughly equal importance...

And I double checked my notes, IQ has only 143 skills (not 270*) and DX has 93.

There are 279 skills overall (not counting Magic or special circumstance skills like Innate Attack or Telepathy, etc).

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Why hate on IQ and not DX? DX effects nearly as many skills and many of those skills are combat skills that mean the difference between life and death. It also influences Basic Speed, which determines Basic Move and Initiative, so it is arguably the key attribute in the majority of GURPS games.

• DX does not effect as many skills as IQ
• these DX skills have a much tighter focus than IQ skills. Many of them are different different forms of hitting people with fists, sticks, and projectiles, grappling, or moving around.
• DX! costs more than IQ!
• I have a much easier time seeing the full range of DX skills in people than IQ skills.
• DX skills respond well to pumping just a few of them sky high, IQ skills don't.
• DX skills tend to complement ST and HT, while IQ skills tend to demphasize them.

To be fair, DX is not the key attribute in my games. Its generally IQ.

[AlexanderHowl]

If we take two characters, one with DX 20 and one with IQ 20, the majority of PCs will probably prefer the former to the latter because they can do more with DX 20 than with IQ 20. Yes, it is fun to play the supergenius on occasion, but the majority of games tend to focus around combat and DX is much more important than IQ when it comes to combat. In the majority of games, a Guns (Pistol) skill of 25 (from DX 20) is much more important than an Anthropology skill of 25 (from IQ 20).

[martinl]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

You don't understand why IQ! is disliked?...[list of reasons]

Let me add one more: For a GM, IQ! is the least important part of IQ for a hero. Low Per means the PC is bad at noticing stuff, and low Will means they are easily dominated. In GURPS the "schmott guy" in the party is usually the one who covers this.

[talonthehand]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

If we take two characters, one with DX 20 and one with IQ 20, the majority of PCs will probably prefer the former to the latter because they can do more with DX 20 than with IQ 20. Yes, it is fun to play the supergenius on occasion, but the majority of games tend to focus around combat and DX is much more important than IQ when it comes to combat. In the majority of games, a Guns (Pistol) skill of 25 (from DX 20) is much more important than an Anthropology skill of 25 (from IQ 20).

"Majority of games where magic doesn't exist" maybe - spells in almost every way I can think of them have IQ as the base stat, and fantasy games are more common than detective ones.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I don't so much like it as believe it's required to make most realistic smart people. But it's only a problem if you rigidly follow disad limits. I don't think many GMs and players actually do that, so it's not really a problem.
But I'm sorry for taking the accidental bait again with this thread derailment.

Attributes are very reasonably considered in regards to Skill v. Talent. Indeed, it was a problem with the OP's post that he didn't mention what any of the Attributes were. Talent is more likely a substitute for Attributes rather than Skills.

It's a problem with Talents that they often aren't much of a bargain compared to Skills.

Then there's "Disad limits". The only way to be rigid about a Disad Limit is for the GM in question to create one. There is no default Disad Limit in 4e.

[AlexanderHowl]

50% of point value during character creation is the limit suggested in Characters.