Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-21-2013, 03:14 PM   #11
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Another factor in talents is the amount of downtime/study experience likely to be given out in a campaign. A campaign that never uses those rules will find talents much less valuable than a campaign that is spread out over twenty years and uses the training rules.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 07:05 PM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimar View Post
I'm trying to work on a Traveler spaceship pilot and came across the "Hot Pilot" talent.
This seems very overpowered since for all "piloting" needs it replaces both DX, IQ and high skill levels.
i
Let's start by adding accuracy to your first statement.

Hot Pilot adds its' level to Gunner (Any), Navigation (Air or Space) and Pilot(Any). It does not "replace" _anything_. It only adds to what you otherwise have. If your IQ and SX are low and you have no pts in those Skills you're not going to be a very good gunner or pilot at all.

Now let's do some math. Say that the character in question is going to have at least DX12 and IQ12 as a base for his other Skills and abilities no matter what.

The question then is if Hot Pilot is a fantastically good deal when comparing Skills+Talent v. Skills alone.

Let's say we start out looking at 1 Gunner specialty, Navigation(Space) and 1 Pilot Specialty. Our hero spends 1 pt on each Skill (3 total) and 5 pts on Hot Pilot I. That's 8 total.

He could have the same Skill levels by spending just 6pts on the Skills alone (2pts each). He's only broken even on the Talent if he considers the learning benefit and the Reputation worth 1 pt each. That doesn't look abusive. It might not even be a good deal.

Even if he needs 2 Gunners, Nav (Air) and Nav (Space) and 2 Pilots he's 11 pts for 1 level of skill +Talent and 12 for the Skills alone. this is about the first place Hot Pilot is a good deal.

The more Skills you need that the Talent covers the better the deal is and the deal becomes better at higher levels.

For example for our second guy who needs 6 Skills under the talent and takes 4 levels. It's 26pts for minimum pts into Skills + max level of Talent and 72 pts for all Skills. For the first guy who only needed 3 Skills it's 23 v. 36.

However, Skills Only guy has bought 3 levels of 4 DX-based Skills at 4 pts/level. That's 48 pts out of his 72 and he could trade those 48 pts + 12 more he spent on levels in Guns and Karate in for +3 DX and improve all his DX-based skills and his Move and Dodge (probably).

This is what things look like for Hot Pilot which is pretty close to the king stallion of all Talents. Business Acumen probably never makes sense. That's 10pts for 8 Skills with no multiple Specializations and characters aren't all that likely to even want all 8 Skills, much less at an equally high level. You could buy the Reputation separately.

So Talents just don't work out for all character concepts and modest levels seldom make sense compared to maxed levels. 10 and 15 pt Talents are closer to being a dead issue rather than a major Munchkinism.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 10:38 PM   #13
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

I have ever only taken talents to flesh out a character idea. I don't think I've ever had a talent be more useful those points in attributes or skills directly. I usually take them for something specific about the talent (reaction bonus from Beastmaster, specific feel of Allure vs Appearance, faster times on skills, etc...)

Even Mr. Smash, a very combat based talent, doesn't seem in anyway broken.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 10:46 PM   #14
Xplo
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This is what things look like for Hot Pilot which is pretty close to the king stallion of all Talents. Business Acumen probably never makes sense. That's 10pts for 8 Skills with no multiple Specializations and characters aren't all that likely to even want all 8 Skills, much less at an equally high level.
Business Acumen makes sense when you're making a character who would want high levels in at least half of the skills - much like any other talent. If most of those skills rarely see any use, that's not the Talent's fault.
Xplo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 11:22 PM   #15
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This is what things look like for Hot Pilot which is pretty close to the king stallion of all Talents. Business Acumen probably never makes sense. That's 10pts for 8 Skills with no multiple Specializations and characters aren't all that likely to even want all 8 Skills, much less at an equally high level. You could buy the Reputation separately.
The reaction bonus is relatively useful, because it synergizes well with the skill set, but the real problem with Business Acumen is that every skill except Gambling has a Merchant default, so if you don't care about Gambling, well, just crank Merchant. Compare two IQ 10 characters; one takes business acumen 4 and puts 1 point in Accounting (13), Administration (13), Economics (12), Finance (13), Market Analysis (12), Merchant (13), and Propaganda (13) [47]; his reaction bonus when buying and selling is +5 (1 from merchant, 4 from talent); he can add +1 to all his skills for 7, +2 for 21. The other buys Reputation +3 (Merchants) [7] and Merchant-20 [40]; defaulting gives him Accounting-15, Administration-17, Economics-14, Finance-14, Market Analysis-16, and Propaganda-15; his reaction bonus when buying and selling is +5 (2 from merchant-20, 3 from reputation); he can get +1 to all of these skills for 4.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 11:38 PM   #16
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The reaction bonus is relatively useful, because it synergizes well with the skill set, but the real problem with Business Acumen is that every skill except Gambling has a Merchant default, so if you don't care about Gambling, well, just crank Merchant. Compare two IQ 10 characters; one takes business acumen 4 and puts 1 point in Accounting (13), Administration (13), Economics (12), Finance (13), Market Analysis (12), Merchant (13), and Propaganda (13) [47]; his reaction bonus when buying and selling is +5 (1 from merchant, 4 from talent); he can add +1 to all his skills for 7, +2 for 21. The other buys Reputation +3 (Merchants) [7] and Merchant-20 [40]; defaulting gives him Accounting-15, Administration-17, Economics-14, Finance-14, Market Analysis-16, and Propaganda-15; his reaction bonus when buying and selling is +5 (2 from merchant-20, 3 from reputation); he can get +1 to all of these skills for 4.
While that is true, she doesn't have those skills, so is still following all rules for defaults, doesn't count them as prereqs, and can't put techniques into them. Which matters a lot less than if they were combat or magic skills...
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2013, 11:50 PM   #17
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
While that is true, she doesn't have those skills, so is still following all rules for defaults, doesn't count them as prereqs, and can't put techniques into them.
Defaulting out of your talent is terrible anyway, since you don't get the talent bonus to the default, and there aren't any interesting defaults within the talent except the merchant default.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2013, 04:08 AM   #18
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Defaulting out of your talent is terrible anyway, since you don't get the talent bonus to the default, and there aren't any interesting defaults within the talent except the merchant default.
B89, the first benefit of Talent: "A bonus of +1 per level with all affected skills, even for default use." (emphasis added)
Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2013, 04:45 AM   #19
roguebfl
Dog of Lysdexics
 
roguebfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
B89, the first benefit of Talent: "A bonus of +1 per level with all affected skills, even for default use." (emphasis added)
Yes default use, if the skill you are defaulting is part of the talent. but no benefit if the default skill is not part of the talent.
__________________
Rogue the Bronze Firelizard
Gerald Grenier, Jr. Hail Eris!
Rogue's Weyr
roguebfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2013, 07:00 AM   #20
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Are Talents overpowered?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
. Compare two IQ 10 characters; one takes business acumen 4 and puts 1 point in Accounting (13), Administration (13), Economics (12), Finance (13), Market Analysis (12), Merchant (13), and Propaganda (13) [47]; his reaction bonus when buying and selling is +5 (1 from merchant, 4 from talent); he can add +1 to all his skills for 7, +2 for 21. The other buys Reputation +3 (Merchants) [7] and Merchant-20 [40]; defaulting gives him Accounting-15, Administration-17, Economics-14, Finance-14, Market Analysis-16, and Propaganda-15; his reaction bonus when buying and selling is +5 (2 from merchant-20, 3 from reputation); he can get +1 to all of these skills for 4.
Just for the record, compare the guy who buys Int! (IQ-Per and Will). He spends 80 pts on IQ for +4 subtracts 20 pts from Per and then Will for 20 each and has _All_ IQ-based Skills at +4.

All the Skills in Business Acumen are IQ-based.

Like I said, 10 and 15pt talents are basically a dead issue.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gm advice, talent, talents

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.