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Old 07-01-2013, 06:22 PM   #1
Avalon
 
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Default Language Talent for Spoken Only

I was thinking of adding a Language Talent that would only cover spoken languages to reflect a knack for picking up the spoken word. It would seem especially appropriate for campaigns (European Rennaissance and earlier) where almost everyone was illiterate. But where there are enough literate people to be worthwhile to keep the current Language Talent that covers both spoken and written.

A spoken language has the categories (CA): Mundane, Social, Language, Language Spoken.... So I thought an easy fix would be to change "gives" from "+1 to CA:Language" to "+1 to CA:Language Spoken" but that doesn't work. It does increase the level of all spoken languages but it also does it for the written languages too.

Does anyone have any ideas? Can I create my own new Category, if so, any idea how?

Thanks
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Language Talent for Spoken Only

Um, yea. Discovered an answer/work-around. If you change "gives" to "+1 to CA:Language Spoken, -0 to CA:Language Written" it works. I guess the stated alteration to Language Written specifically overrides a default in the programming somewhere. I assume "+0 to CA:Language Written" would work too.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:18 PM   #3
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Default Re: Language Talent for Spoken Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon View Post
It does increase the level of all spoken languages but it also does it for the written languages too.
That's because the standard advantage "Language" is a single trait; it's the same advantage that just happens to cover two different facets of language, so giving a bonus to it affects both the spoken and written parts of it. If you want to affect the different parts separately, or have different levels for each part, you need to take the two separate advantages Language (Spoken) and Language (Written).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon View Post
Um, yea. Discovered an answer/work-around. If you change "gives" to "+1 to CA:Language Spoken, -0 to CA:Language Written" it works. I guess the stated alteration to Language Written specifically overrides a default in the programming somewhere. I assume "+0 to CA:Language Written" would work too.
I have no idea why that works, other than maybe the character sheet that you're using is interpreting the bonuses separately either intentionally or as an unexpected "bug/feature."
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Language Talent for Spoken Only

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
I have no idea why that works, other than maybe the character sheet that you're using is interpreting the bonuses separately either intentionally or as an unexpected "bug/feature."
Generally, while sheets may, or may not, display bonuses, they do not apply them to traits, GCA does. I can't say for certain without knowing which sheet, but this is, more than likely, a GCA snafu.
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Old 07-02-2013, 02:30 PM   #5
Armin
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Default Re: Language Talent for Spoken Only

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Originally Posted by Avalon View Post
Um, yea. Discovered an answer/work-around. If you change "gives" to "+1 to CA:Language Spoken, -0 to CA:Language Written" it works. I guess the stated alteration to Language Written specifically overrides a default in the programming somewhere. I assume "+0 to CA:Language Written" would work too.
I think perhaps something else was going on there, as a +0 or -0 bonus doesn't actually count as a bonus to GCA.

I am, in fact, unable to reproduce your results. On a test character with a full language (both written and spoken), and two partial languages (one spoken only, one written only), for which I created two advantages to grant bonuses to the languages:

* a gives(+1 to CA:Language Spoken) grants the bonus to the full language and the spoken language only; the written only language is unaffected.

* a gives(+1 to CA:Language Written) grants the bonus to the full language and the written language only; the spoken only language is unaffected.

So, basically, I'm seeing exactly what you expected to see when you started, and exactly what I expected as well. I saw now unexpected issues on my test.

I really have no idea how the situation you describe could occur. Is it at all possible that something else was going on, such as maybe a typo in the gives() that was corrected when the -0 bit was added? (And see what Eric wrote about the main 'full' language.)

Armin
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: Language Talent for Spoken Only

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Originally Posted by Armin View Post

So, basically, I'm seeing exactly what you expected to see when you started, and exactly what I expected as well. I saw now unexpected issues on my test.

I really have no idea how the situation you describe could occur. Is it at all possible that something else was going on, such as maybe a typo in the gives() that was corrected when the -0 bit was added? (And see what Eric wrote about the main 'full' language.)

Armin
When it didn't behave like I thought it would I specifically checked the spelling and that wasn't it. Before it behaved for you like we both initially expected I was thinking that CA:Language was an "umbrella" term that must automatically include Spoken and Written unless you cross one out of the list by giving it its own specific instruction. With your data, that idea of mine is clearly just plain wrong.

My first attempt at altering the "gives" was with the syntax "+1 To CA: Language (Spoken)". That of course didn't work and when I looked up the CA's for a particular language I saw the correct syntax didn't use parentheses so I changed it. And that's what increased both Written and Spoken. Shortly it occurred to me that it might work if I added "-1 to CA:Language Written" to offset the (at that time) presumed "global" gives command listing. That did what you'd think: it made all my spoken languages +1 and all the written -1 (like it should). When I saw that the idea came to me to try the "-0" which worked.

It makes me wonder if starting out with the parentheses error in my first "gives" attempt could have seeded a bad or conflicting string in the GCA somewhere but that sort of thing hasn't really made since in programming since the late '70s. (Somehow I think maybe it's sad I even know that... :) but that's when I had my first programming class in high school... and it probably only comes to mind now because it was such an early concept in my computer awareness that it still sticks with me some.)

Well that was certainly too much tangent, sorry.

I have no idea. I might try a new character like you did just to test it fresh. If I do (tomorrow) I'll post and let you know what I find. Thanks for trying to replicate the problem; I appreciate the extra effort. I'll be in touch but since it's 2:30 am here I'm putting everything to bed for now.

Ciao y'all
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:51 PM   #7
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Default Re: Language Talent for Spoken Only

Well I tested the phenomenon using new characters today. To cut to the chase, it worked like it should have from the beginning in all cases.

All cases includes...
1. Restart machine, open GCA 4, create new character, add Lang Talent, modify the "gives" to Spoken.
2. Restart machine, Open the Offending Character, create new character, add Lang Talent, modify the "gives" to Spoken.
3. Delete "-0 To CA:Language Spoken" from the original Offending Character's modified Lang Talent.

These all work (now) and only give the talent bonus to spoken languages. I have NO idea why it would not behave properly before and no idea why "-0..." helped then either.

If we "have to know" we are going to have to "learn to live with disappointment."

Thanks for everyone's input!
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:28 AM   #8
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Default Re: Language Talent for Spoken Only

Sometimes, weirdness happens. I'm glad you're set for now. Thanks for letting us know.

Armin
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