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Old 03-11-2023, 02:35 AM   #11
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
If a celestial titan is fighting and takes a measly little 20 HP wound then that shouldn't stop him from hitting back (and/or composing poetry).
Well it's at least semi-official that shock penalties, etc. follow the same rule that healing and so on do - if you have 20+ HP any 'per HP' penalty is 'per full HP/10 points' instead. And what real Celestial Titan wouldn't have High Pain Threshold?
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Old 03-11-2023, 03:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
I don't know—I'm told that gunshot wounds, particular from hollow-point bullets, REALLY hurt.
Most often, a gun wound results in a major wound and the character has to make a HT roll to avoid knockout and stunning.

Furthermore, a -4 is quitte huge. You drop from 12 (74.1% chance of succeeding) to 8 (25.9% chance of succeeding). In D&D, it would mean that the difficulty of your action would be improved by 10!

Last edited by Gollum; 03-11-2023 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 03-11-2023, 03:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Ken Hite's recent experience doesn't mention that and "I didn't know I'd been shot until I saw the blood" stories are quite common.
Related...one of my more painful medical escapades involved falling about 7-8 feet, elbow first, onto bare concrete. (I shattered the elbow and had a break of the upper arm 2 major surgeries and 2 bouts of phys therapy (18 months total) and 15yrs later I can touch my face again with that hand...but not quite the same shoulder)

I can still remember lying on my back on said floor for a second or two thinking...**** that is going to hurt...and then the connection was made and boy did it.
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Old 03-11-2023, 03:25 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

My most painful one would be burning my face (about 75% of it) with a flareup of a gasoline flame as a teenager.

That was incredibly painful and it didn't stop being really painful until I managed to get to sleep the night after (and I burned myself in the morning).
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Old 03-11-2023, 03:40 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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My most painful one would be burning my face (about 75% of it) with a flareup of a gasoline flame as a teenager.

That was incredibly painful and it didn't stop being really painful until I managed to get to sleep the night after (and I burned myself in the morning).
Well I left out the ambulance ride, the 3-4 hours in a hallway NEAR the ER and (even with some pain meds on board) the most painful part...

...having the radiologist and 2 assistants 'manipulate' the broken arm to get the angles he wanted for the X-Rays (note the careful use of the plural). When he asked me if i could 'hold the arm in place at that angle', proud of having not screamed to this point I think I managed a 'Hell, no.' So the 2 assistants took my X-Rays with me holding the arm at the various angles.

A long day but sadly not the worst day...definite top 5 though. Certainly the 'on topic' example of sudden major trauma where the event and the pain had a perceptible time lag tho.
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Old 03-11-2023, 08:42 AM   #16
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Well it's at least semi-official that shock penalties, etc. follow the same rule that healing and so on do - if you have 20+ HP any 'per HP' penalty is 'per full HP/10 points' instead.
This is just RAW, actually! Non-optional raw, even, in that certain unrelated rules are worded in ways directly contingent on it (“whenever you are struck in the head … or vitals for enough injury to cause a shock penalty, you must make an immediate HT roll to avoid knockdown and stunning.”)

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Originally Posted by Rupert
And what real Celestial Titan wouldn't have High Pain Threshold?
It really bothers me that "Completely ignore shock as a mechanic, no matter how much your are injured" isn't listed as an exotic or even a cinematic trait. Almost as much as it bothers me that that's nothing between between that and full shock—that's like having Unfazeable without Fearlessness!

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Most often, a gun wound results in a major wound and the character has to make a HT roll to avoid knockout and stunning.
Yes, but if they make that roll, they suffer no penalty beyond normal shock. This means that, if your character has, say, HT 12 and HP 12, there’s no difference between a 11-HP torso hit (bringing you down to 1 HP!) and a 4-HP hit (not even a major wound) almost 75% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Gollum
Furthermore, a -4 is quitte huge. You drop from 12 (74.1% chance of succeeding) to 8 (25.9% chance of succeeding). In D&D, it would mean that the difficulty of your action would be improved by 10!
If you're at skill 12, yes, −4 is a lot. But as described in the table of TDMs:
Quote:
Originally Posted by p. B345, emphasis mine
−4 or −5 – Hard. Tasks so challenging that even an expert will look for alternatives. A true “master” is still unlikely to feel challenged.
So once you reach a certain point of skill, shock becomes significant less relevant. Instead of backing off and taking an AOD, you're looking at tactics like, "Make this next attack a non-deceptive thrust to the torso instead of a deceptive swing to the neck." This might be reasonable for a 4HP hit but for a 11HP hit? I don't think so, unless you have the superhuman pain tolerance that is HPT.

For long time I've felt that GURPS has needed a mechanic for the momentary "soft stun" after being hit. Shock is partially sufficient for this purpose, but not totally. If it were uncapped, or even if it had a higher cap, like −10, it would be sufficient.

Last edited by VIVIT; 03-11-2023 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 03-11-2023, 08:47 AM   #17
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
For long time I've felt that GURPS has needed a mechanic for the momentary "soft stun" after being hit. Shock is partially sufficient for this purpose, but not totally. If it were uncapped, or even if it had a higher cap, like −10, it would be sufficient.
Well than if you are the GM...you can house rule and go with the Editions 1-3 rule for shock...no cap.

Glad to have solved the issue for ya! (giggle)
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Old 03-11-2023, 09:42 AM   #18
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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Originally Posted by VIVIT View Post
Yes, but if they make that roll, they suffer no penalty beyond normal shock. This means that, if your character has, say, HT 12 and HP 12, there’s no difference between a 11-HP torso hit (bringing you down to 1 HP!) and a 4-HP hit (not even a major wound) almost 75% of the time.
If you're at skill 12, yes, −4 is a lot. But as described in the table of TDMs:
So once you reach a certain point of skill, shock becomes significant less relevant. Instead of backing off and taking an AOA, you're looking at tactics like, "Make this next attack a non-deceptive thrust to the torso instead of a deceptive swing to the neck." This might be reasonable for a 4HP hit but for a 11HP hit? I don't think so, unless you have the superhuman pain tolerance that is HPT.
For long time I've felt that GURPS has needed a mechanic for the momentary "soft stun" after being hit. Shock is partially sufficient for this purpose, but not totally. If it were uncapped, or even if it had a higher cap, like −10, it would be sufficient.
It may be explained by the fact that someone very trained is used to be hit. His reactions during combats are more instinctive than thoughtful. Actually, that is all the purpose of martial art training: repeating over and over techniques until they become pure reflexes and, so, until you can apply them without having to thing about them (which means no matter what happens to you, as long as you remain conscious).

If you want something harsher, there is an official answer: Partial injuries, in Martial Arts, page 136.

Someone who is badly hurt gets a permanent penalty, depending on the severity of the wound and its location. It’s not a very huge penalty (-1 to -3 to DX and all related skills) and only occurs after 2 x HT seconds (which means not for that combat, but surely for the following ones) though …

Now, don’t forget the rules about crippling injuries. They are important too. A serious injury (a bullet in one arm or one leg) will probably cripple your limb for the rest of the fight, and even more.
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Old 03-11-2023, 09:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

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Well than if you are the GM...you can house rule and go with the Editions 1-3 rule for shock...no cap.

Glad to have solved the issue for ya! (giggle)
Way ahead of you there—I have notes on ideas for a 4e update of T-Bone’s shock rules from GULLIVER, which tie shock in with the mechanics of knockdown and stunning in a way that only really makes sense if shock is uncapped.

I'm just curious why the rule was changed in 4e.
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Old 03-11-2023, 10:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Why is shock capped at −4 in 4e?

I suppose that authors considered that shock doesn’t represent actual injury but only the burst of pain caused by it. And compared to major distractions, for instance (-3 or more), a penalty higher than -4 would seem too high.

Pain hinders, of course, but when you are in immediate danger of dying (fight to the death), it doesn’t automatically prevent everyone to do anything. A too huge penalty (-9 in the average for a common bullet: 2d+2 pi) would.

Last edited by Gollum; 03-11-2023 at 10:18 AM.
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