Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Anyway, please make other recommendations, particularly skills and abilities for NPCs to influence and assist the sidekicks/hirelings. I have no interest in allowing the players directly control of the NPCs. This is incompatible with my GMing.

Well, in this case, spellcaster NPCs bring a lot to the table, especially clerics. Resist Lightning, Shield, Armor, Hide Thoughts, Bravery, etc. are all spells that are good for a party to have access to, and the caster can just hide in a corner somewhere while maintaining them so the caster can easily be an NPC.

Knight NPCs with Sacrificial Parry or Shield Wall Training are also good sidekicks because they can protect others.

Is this the kind of feedback you're looking for? Ideas on what hirelings will be low-key useful? Or are you looking more for interesting quirks and personality traits, like the mild-mannered, unarmed halfling accountant who is actually a highly trained spy and martial artist capable of throwing a quill pen into an enemy's brain via its eye socket from thirty feet away? (And has the Bloodthirsty trait combined with Bad Temper-6, but high enough Acting to make minor retaliations look accidental.)

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by Rolando

What I do, but admittedly I don't really play classic dungeon crawls, is to give NPCs personality, names, appearance (things to differentiate them and remember them) and some core abilities.

In your example your players need or want a healer and maybe a squire, they don't have to be player character "classes", so they are not paladins, druids, etc, they are hirelings. NPC Nº1 is a fighter/healer (squire), in background may be paladin aspirant or just squire, in game terms it have healing skills at 12 to 14 and maybe some healing magic, also professional skills to do the job (tending horses, weapons and armors), maybe also some knowledge skills about religion and high society (all of them at 12).

Cleric/Holy Warrior are probably at the top of the list unless a PC fills each of these roles. A Squire (i.e junior Knight) aslo works well as side kick to Knight, Holy Warrior, or maybe Cleric.

NPC Nº2 is a swashbuckler, so besides the flamboyant personality and garish clothes it is good with some social interaction skills, have seafaring skills, maybe appraisal and low and high society skills (all at 12 to 14), also good with the sword and evading getting hit by way of acrobatics or parry.
... you don't care about detailed stats, just the capabilities and everything else is narration and description.

I really like this idea, I just want to ensure the Swashbuckler sidekick doesn't
steal the spotlight from the PCs. One thing I want for the NPCs is to highlight the PCs. What can the PCs do to influence, command, and guide the NPCs. What skills and capabilities can the PCs have to best do this and to command the spotlight and highlight the PCs capabilities.

Game effect of these supporting characters is:
In combat both NPCs will take some of the baddies with them, so 8 orcs attack the party, 2 orcs will be trying to kill each character, but only the players will be actively rolling skills and defenses, the NPCs will only be narrated, NPC1 will be surviving by shield and armor while the NPC2 by dodging, parrying and laying insults to the orcs, the players must do the actual fighting and maybe when they go to help the hirelings there is one orc down and maybe the hireling have a cut or bruise, but you don't bother rolling attacks, defenses and damage for a fight between NPCs, just narrate some reasonable outcome.

I'm not sure I'd really want to go full in on this, especially if the NPC seems never to get hurt, while the PCs who have superior skills are taking a beating. I can definitely see NPCs making only occasional attacks and going full on ALL-OUT defense half the time and retreating defense at every opportunity. Maybe play it safe on attacks, like use ranged attacks when possible, especially aiming. Also maybe use polearms when available,

Outside combat these NPCs will add some commentary in their expertise, or help making some interaction smoother, or even stealing something from someone (if the hireling have the skills), in those occasions you do roll for the NPC skill.

OK, sounds good, but only where PCs don't have the skills. Maybe use hireling/side-kick as distractions when PC thief pickpockets or steals something. Provide distracton when PC thief is stealthing around to get in position for Backstab. Use ranged attack to get the enemy's attention so the Barbarian PC can charge forward and make big attack with his battleaxe.

[quote]in this way the NPCs are great color and are there for all the narrative and roleplaying experience but are not cumbersome to play, and do add some skills and needed support.[quote]

OK, sounds good.

If the hirelings know magic you do have to list their spell list and energy availability and take acute account of energy, also use the personality of the NPC, so the NPC may hold unto some energy or sacrifice more energy that what is healthy if that is what this particular NPC would do.

This sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I follow. Can you give me an example or two? The idea is very appealing to me, just not clear on how to implement.

Also in a fight against a big baddie the NPCs will help distract and annoy the enemy, or even add some damage but it is all narrated not rolled and played, when the turn to act come for an N?C you narrate the outcome right away, you may roll if you want and make something special if a critical success or failure is rolled though, some players like to know the dice and not the GM is in command, but otherwise only the actual player characters are the ones doing the fight.

OK, I'll look at this as striking a balance.

you add interesting situations and make the players appreciate their hirelings as characters and not as tools, but they are tools to make the game easier to game master and play.

Thanks, that's exactly the type of advice I was looking for!

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

One thing I want for the NPCs is to highlight the PCs. What can the PCs do to influence, command, and guide the NPCs. What skills and capabilities can the PCs have to best do this and to command the spotlight and highlight the PCs capabilities.

Keep the Will scores low on the NPCs and allow the PCs to liberally use their influence skills (Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, Intimidation, Savoir-Faire, Sex Appeal, or Streetwise) to affect their reactions and morale. Keep the NPCs highly focused on their niche and counterbalance their strengths with significant disadvantages. For example, a caster might have a decent IQ for the purposes of casting spells, but their Will and Per could be reduced to 10 (or lower). A sprinkling of creative Odious Personal Habits can also help explain why these characters aren't already gainfully employed.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Well, in this case, spellcaster NPCs bring a lot to the table, especially clerics. Resist Lightning, Shield, Armor, Hide Thoughts, Bravery, etc. are all spells that are good for a party to have access to, and the caster can just hide in a corner somewhere while maintaining them so the caster can easily be an NPC.

Sounds good. What are some good spells for enhancing Martial Artist, Scout, Thief, and Barbarian?

Knight NPCs with Sacrificial Parry or Shield Wall Training are also good sidekicks because they can protect others.

I'll need to look at these more carefully. Does Shield Wall Training work better if two or more in the party have it. Say if both PC Knight and Squire NPC side-kick both have it?

Is this the kind of feedback you're looking for? Ideas on what hirelings will be low-key useful?

Yes!

Or are you looking more for interesting quirks and personality traits, like the mild-mannered, unarmed halfling accountant who is actually a highly trained spy and martial artist capable of throwing a quill pen into an enemy's brain via its eye socket from thirty feet away? (And has the Bloodthirsty trait combined with Bad Temper-6, but high enough Acting to make minor retaliations look accidental.)

No. The last things definitely not. I want the spotlight to remain on the PCs. I do want some traits that make the NPC side-kicks interesting, but mainly so the players are interested and invested in them, not so they steal the spotlight or are secret combat monsters. I want the side-kicks to be useful but not as powerful as the PCs.

Example:

Ardrian Holyoak Druid (side-kick)
ST 11 DX 12 IQ 12 HT 12
Per 12 Will 12 HP 11 Move (whatever basic calculation comes out)

Ardian is a druid and woodsman. He is good with spear, sling, and hand axe (all at 12 or less: Spear-12, Axe/Mace-11, Sling-12). He'll have Healer-2, Outdoorsman-2, Power Investiture 1 (Druidic)

Add in a few low level druidic spells (spend a point on each), maybe a druidic ability or two. Give him a colorful but fairly generic background story. Nothing to outshine the PCs.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Sounds good. What are some good spells for enhancing Martial Artist, Scout, Thief, and Barbarian?

In addition to the useful-for-everyone defensive spells that sjmdw45 mentioned, buffing DX with Grace is pretty awesome for any DX-based combatant. It both speeds them up and gives them a bonus to their combat skills. It's expensive, but that helps keep the NPC out of the spotlight because they don't have enough FP to do much else during the battle.

Similarly, and half as expensive, is Might—boost ST, HP, and damage. (Interestingly, high skill reduces the cost of Grace but not Might.)

Alertness, Mage-Stealth, and Invisibility are often great for the Thief or Scout.

Strengthen Will can be a lifesaver when your Barbarian is up against charm magic. And Daze or Sleep can be an insurance policy if the Barbarian has Berserk.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Sounds good. What are some good spells for enhancing Martial Artist, Scout, Thief, and Barbarian?

I'll need to look at these more carefully. Does Shield Wall Training work better if two or more in the party have it. Say if both PC Knight and Squire NPC side-kick both have it?

Shield Wall Training is useful even if only one character has it. It lets you protect others.

Good spells for enhancing Barbarian, Martial Artist, Scout, Thief:

Haste (better Dodge, and more movement to gain advantageous positions)

Great Haste (most common usage: triple your attacks per round via All Out Attack (Double) + regular Attack; the extra movement may also let toy do a runaround attack)

Walk on Air/Fly to gain higher ground (bonuses to active defenses, penalties to enemy active defense) and combo with Glue spell.

Shield (stacks nicely with Haste)

Stop Paralysis (avoid dying when an ice weasel or ice wyrm paralyzes you)

Dark Vision + Darkness (enemies mostly can't hit you or defend well against your attacks)

Invisibility (avoid ambushes, gain surprise, first attack hard to defend against)

Resist Fire/Cold/etc. (avoid damage)

Sharpen (more damage)

Flaming Weapon (more damage)

Might (more damage; not very cost-effective though)

Bless (enhance accuracy/defense/damage AND soak damage)

Magic Resistance (anti-evil-rune insurance)

Blink Other (excellent protection spell that can save others from really nasty stuff e.g. Jellies)

Armor (decent protection spell that has some synergies with Blade Turning)

Blade Turning (potentially excellent defense against bladed weapons depending on how your GM interprets the spell on a miss or successful active defense; potentially cuts the incoming damage from an orc horde by a factor of 3 or more, and stacks with other defenses)

Missile Shield (prevents melee warriors from getting pincushioned by horde pygmies, etc.)

Swim (prevent weapon skills from degrading underwater)

Keen Vision (enhance trap detection)

Hide Thoughts (anti-mind-control; stacks with Magic Resistance)

[Rolando]

[QUOTE=restlessgriffin;2464184]Cleric/Holy Warrior are probably at the top of the list unless a PC fills each of these roles. A Squire (i.e junior Knight) aslo works well as side kick to Knight, Holy Warrior, or maybe Cleric.



I really like this idea, I just want to ensure the Swashbuckler sidekick doesn't
steal the spotlight from the PCs. One thing I want for the NPCs is to highlight the PCs. What can the PCs do to influence, command, and guide the NPCs. What skills and capabilities can the PCs have to best do this and to command the spotlight and highlight the PCs capabilities.



I'm not sure I'd really want to go full in on this, especially if the NPC seems never to get hurt, while the PCs who have superior skills are taking a beating. I can definitely see NPCs making only occasional attacks and going full on ALL-OUT defense half the time and retreating defense at every opportunity. Maybe play it safe on attacks, like use ranged attacks when possible, especially aiming. Also maybe use polearms when available,



OK, sounds good, but only where PCs don't have the skills. Maybe use hireling/side-kick as distractions when PC thief pickpockets or steals something. Provide distracton when PC thief is stealthing around to get in position for Backstab. Use ranged attack to get the enemy's attention so the Barbarian PC can charge forward and make big attack with his battleaxe.

[quote]in this way the NPCs are great color and are there for all the narrative and roleplaying experience but are not cumbersome to play, and do add some skills and needed support.

OK, sounds good.



This sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I follow. Can you give me an example or two? The idea is very appealing to me, just not clear on how to implement.



OK, I'll look at this as striking a balance.



Thanks, that's exactly the type of advice I was looking for!

Sorry for the formating, I still don't understant it well enough to make it look good.

The key concept you need is that everything is kind of glossed over when it comes to the supporting NPCs, that is the way a swashbuckler don't steal a players thunder, you just describe it as much and as interesting as it helps the story and the characters. On the other hand you may use these NPCs to show the players how they may also get more risky or describe their actions in more interesting ways, but overall the NPCs are just background flavor, never in the spotlight.

Now some examples of use in those particular cases:
Against a group of enemies the swashbuckler stand in a table and kick some of the old rotten vases and food in the dungeon to an enemies face as a starting move, you roll and call it a taunt, taking that one insulted orc and one or two more focused on the swashbuckler (SB). Here it is assuming the players need that help, otherwise there will only be one orc in the SB at best.
Against a single enemy the SB will probably distract and add some damage, you as the Gm know how much it adds damage so the battle willtake a good and interesting amount of time and effort. the good thing is that you may add othing, and just count players damage into account and whatever the NPCs do is taken by an abstract amount of hit points and no body cares, it happen beyond the scope of the game.

Another key concept is that these supporting NPCs do take damage, you just don't care to roll for it nor play it straight by the rules. you may make a single roll of the NPC skill to read how well his turn went and in a missed roll it went badly and may describe the outcome accordingly, or just make that part of the combat description reasonable, so they take some damage if you feel they are too good for the story or to make an enemy or band of foes more fearsome. A description like "the minotaur swing its axe and hit squarely the shield of Baldrik (your squire) breaking his shield and arm, sending him to the ground a few paces back".

So, you are in control of everything, it is a bit more work in the description department but a lot less in the game rules and accounting, and boring part of the game.

The players may influence thing by the use of leadership and maybe sometimes may need to use leadership, fast talk or even intimidation (or other interpersonal skills or abilities) to reign in the impulses of the sidekicks, you may also give adds to the base skills according to morale and speeches, or uses of tactics by a PC, then this increases will alter the narrative descriptions you will bring, or if you do the single skill roll to see how the turn goes it will help or maybe not but in general the pluses will help. It is still abstract and narrative but if a player uses tactics and shout some command (and the supporting characters follows it) then your descriptions of the outcomes must account for the players actions and be more positive or avert some negative outcomes.

The out of combat skills are alway support, these NPCs are just that after all, they are supporting the characters and supporting you as a GM to craft a narrative. So, if a player have streetwise then the swashbuckler will not use his streetwise, but if the player ask for help the swashbuckler will be a backup, you roll the NPC skill if the player miss or it adds a bonus to the players roll. It is better to let things go south than make these supporting characters solve a problem in spite the players actions, they are just a help and backup.

As for the mage NPCs, they should be more detailed because your players should know what to expect and magic is like that in the game. But how much power these NPCs want to use is up to them. Imagine a supporting character that is kind of a sleazy city mage, maybe friend of one of the player characters or maybe just by contract, this mage will not use the entirety of his magic reserve, be it an advantage or powerstones, because this person always like to have an escape plan and saving themselves is priority number one. you rule it have X number of spells and 20 of energy reserve plus 12 Fatigue but will never use more than 15 energy in any encounter, the other 17 is for personal use only. the players may find out this character is kind of a misser when it means wasting energy and may need convincing or extra pay to make more effort or use more magic. It all builds up the NPC personality and narrative. if time passes and you think this mage really befriends one of the player character then maybe one day will use a lot more magic, even using hit points to fuel some magic to save the player character, those are the moments you are building, the players interactions with the NPCs hirelings will lead to more sacrifice or more self preservation in them, and this is not just for mages, soldiers may be reluctant to stay in front of a minotaur to protect a wizard that treats them like smelly meat shields after all.

Something more, you don't have to build these NPCs as player characters not even care about the point total at all, but you do have to have their personality, general aptitudes and what is important to them, because that is what will come into play more than skills, advantages, etc.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by Dalin

Keep the Will scores low on the NPCs and allow the PCs to liberally use their influence skills (Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, Intimidation, Savoir-Faire, Sex Appeal, or Streetwise) to affect their reactions and morale. Keep the NPCs highly focused on their niche and counterbalance their strengths with significant disadvantages. For example, a caster might have a decent IQ for the purposes of casting spells, but their Will and Per could be reduced to 10 (or lower). A sprinkling of creative Odious Personal Habits can also help explain why these characters aren't already gainfully employed.

Doesn't pushing Will below 10 make the PCs great targets for the enemy? I'm mainly concerned with the enemy taking over the NPC hireling/side-kicks and turning them from useful to the PCs to liabilities or outright adversaries to the PCs. For the most part I'll keep Will and Per in the 10-12 range. Maybe for Thief or Scout hireling I'd boost Per (or some subset) to 13-15 range. Maybe hearing or Vision. For Barbarian, maybe boost Smell to 15. It might be useful to allow a hireling to scout ahead for traps.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Doesn't pushing Will below 10 make the PCs great targets for the enemy? I'm mainly concerned with the enemy taking over the NPC hireling/side-kicks and turning them from useful to the PCs to liabilities or outright adversaries to the PCs. For the most part I'll keep Will and Per in the 10-12 range. Maybe for Thief or Scout hireling I'd boost Per (or some subset) to 13-15 range. Maybe hearing or Vision. For Barbarian, maybe boost Smell to 15. It might be useful to allow a hireling to scout ahead for traps.

Frankly, no matter whether Will is 8 or 10 or 12, mind control is terrific at taking over DFRPG characters since it's so easy to get a skill of 15-16+.

Hence why Hide Thoughts and Bless should be kept up on your beefiest fighter--Hide Thoughts will at least give the fighter a good chance to win the Quick Contest (no matter how low Will is), while Bless can alter the result of a failed roll from "the fighter murders the rest of the party in one turn" to "Bless ends".

Another good counter is decoys: when the enemy tries to control one of the six to eight delvers, it turns out that four of the delvers are just Complex Illusions under an Initiative spell, so mind control does almost nothing.

Keen Vision will boost Per 13ish to Per 18ish for tap detecting. It's a great spell, with a pretty long duration. Having a hireling cast Keen Vision, Haste, Invisibility, and Dark Vision on a Scout or Thief can greatly enhance their chances of successfully scouting out an enemy stronghold without dying.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Frankly, no matter whether Will is 8 or 10 or 12, mind control is terrific at taking over DFRPG characters since it's so easy to get a skill of 15-16+.

Will keep this in mind.

Another good counter is decoys: when the enemy tries to control one of the six to eight delvers, it turns out that four of the delvers are just Complex Illusions under an Initiative spell, so mind control does almost nothing.

Sounds good. I think the Bard will need to be allowed Illusion college (need to check the cost on that in Delvers to Grow).

Keen Vision will boost Per 13ish to Per 18ish for tap detecting. It's a great spell, with a pretty long duration. Having a hireling cast Keen Vision, Haste, Invisibility, and Dark Vision on a Scout or Thief can greatly enhance their chances of successfully scouting out an enemy stronghold without dying.

Thanks for the advice. Invisibility is an unknown/not allowed spell for my campaign (only available via rare artifacts and the very rare archmages). Will use the others though.