Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip > The Fantasy Trip: House Rules

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2018, 10:37 AM   #11
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Healing and survival

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
The rules I've been toying with are potentially more generous than that -- but potentially less generous, depending. Here's what I'm going to try out. It's a bleeding-out / stabilization system ala D&D:
  • Use popular house rule about separate damage and fatigue tracking with unconsciousness at ST 0, not ST 1
  • When you take a hit that increases total damage past your ST, you start bleeding out and need to be stabilized or else you die
  • When you're bleeding out
    • If you take any more damage you die
    • You can be stabilized by a successful action by someone with First Aid (IQ 8, 1 talent point, can heal 1 hit) or better and then you're no longer bleeding out, just unconscious
    • You make one "death save" per turn, starting on the next turn, at 4/ST (a constitution-like talent could reduce dice for this). Three out of five results determine whether you live or die. On your third failure, you die at the end of the turn unless someone stabilizes you. This gives someone a chance to stabilize -- you'll last for at least three turns but you could last 5 turns.
I like your death save system.

For my own tastes, I don't really like the D&D-like parts where:

* if you take any more damage you die - that seems a bit too severe if otherwise you can live through any amount of damage. I'd think the guy who took a huge amount of damage but then wasn't hurt while down, would be more likely to die than the guy who was just taken to -1 and then got hit for another point or two of damage.

* the easy first aid skill roll, which looks like it can be repeated and also doesn't take into account the amount of damage, which I'd want it to. Also seems rather easy.

So like D&D 5e, it seems to make survival mainly about whether you take another hit after going down or not.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 11:08 AM   #12
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Healing and survival

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I like your death save system.

For my own tastes, I don't really like the D&D-like parts where:

* if you take any more damage you die - that seems a bit too severe if otherwise you can live through any amount of damage. I'd think the guy who took a huge amount of damage but then wasn't hurt while down, would be more likely to die than the guy who was just taken to -1 and then got hit for another point or two of damage.

* the easy first aid skill roll, which looks like it can be repeated and also doesn't take into account the amount of damage, which I'd want it to. Also seems rather easy.

So like D&D 5e, it seems to make survival mainly about whether you take another hit after going down or not.
Good point about the first aid roll -- maybe it should also be a 4-die roll.

About the extra damage -- the person already falls under "Slaughtering Helpless Figures," so I guess the rules are clear on that.

There's another side to the system though -- if someone down to ST 1 takes triple damage from a battle axe, they still get death saves. I actually thought that would be the part you didn't like :).

One of the main reasons I'm considering these rules is to avoid insta-kill and make it so that it's possible to salvage a party where a lot of them are mostly dead, not all dead (er, without actually having to bring them to Miracle Max).
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 11:23 AM   #13
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Healing and survival

For TFT campaign play, house rules I think I would tend to use would be (use the standard "fatigue doesn't kill" house rule" (and I always do healing per wound not per combat) plus):

A) A simple widening of the values that mean your unconscious but not dead. i.e. instead of only ST 1, ST 0, ST -1, ST -2, or ST -3 could mean you were just unconscious.

B) Maybe the death point is when negative damage exceeds some fraction of your ST, say 1/4 or 1/3, or if you really don't want people to die much at all, 1/2.

I might also make the death point more severe, but give a physicker some amount of time to get your ST up before you die, if possible. e.g. Maybe you're still alive if your ST is 1 or 0 only, but if your damage is negative 1/2 ST or less, a physicker who gets to you within 10 minutes can roll 3/IQ (modified by -1 per minute it took him to get to you after you fell) to physick one wound and restart the survival clock. If you have another would he could physick that to restart the clock, and if he gets you back to ST 0 you'll live. Healing potion would of course be really helpful for this.

or instead:

C) A system like CJM posted on this other thread, where rolls are made modified by the amount of damage taken.

I think I may like a system like that the best, personally, though I'd tweak it a bit for my own original-TFT-like tastes to be something like:

1) When wounded down to ST 0 or less due to damage (not counting fatigue), a figure may be about to die. If no one starts to treat them within one minute, they must roll 3/ST, minus 1 for every point they are below 0 ST, or die. If no one treats them within 5 minutes, 15 minutes, or 30 minutes, roll again at each point. If they roll a crit success or survive through 30 minutes, they've stabilized and will live.

1b) I'd also let them make a second roll each time to wake up and be able to stagger around like someone at ST 2, if they want. I might apply additional DX and MA penalties though (e.g. max 1/2 MA, DX -5 not just -3).

2) If they do get treated by a physicker, the physicker can stabilize them on a 3/IQ roll, but again at a minus equal to how far below 0 they are. A Master Physicker gets a +1. Takes 5 minutes and can be combined with treating a wound (you could make it the same roll interpreted two different ways, but I'd roll each effect separately). Treating wounds will of course also raise ST, so it will help them even if you fail the stabilization roll. Crit fail on stabilization means they die, but normal failure just means you either need to try again, or else they'll have to make survival rolls as in 1). Only one physicker can attempt to stabilize at the same time (but multiple physickers could help treat other wounds at the same time (if he has multiple wounds), raising the patient's ST and reducing penalties for his ST level).

3) As CJM wrote, "healing potions do not take effect until an hour after ingested, [...] and no unconscious [person] can drink one." (I'd probably relent on this one to at least let potions effect stabilization rolls immediately.)

4) Other magic healing products may exist, such as CJM's healing balm, or my friend Chris' "bandages soaked in medicine", which can be applied even by a non-physicker to help them stabilize. These give bonuses to the ST rolls to stabilize, and may also heal like a healing potion, or even add a chance as if a physicker were trying to stabilize the patient.

5) Healing spells, (if any are known) might be the only way to give a player instant healing during combat, which I would just have increase their ST for purposes of the survival rolls in 1).

6) Aid spells would not work unless you could keep them maintained for most of the survival roll period - it might be feasible for the first one-minute period (half a minute is 6 turns, so renewing the Aid spell twice would do it), but the longer survival check periods would requite a lot of spell-maintenance ST.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 12:51 PM   #14
JLV
 
JLV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Healing and survival

As a general thing, I like a relatively generous healing system; however, having said that, one of the cool things about TFT is that stupidity or bad luck CAN get you killed -- and that seems just fine to me; it's pretty much that way in real life (if you doubt me, check out "The Darwin Awards")!

So, I like to give my players plenty of opportunities to do at least some healing along the way; but when the final roll goes sour, that's it; they die.
JLV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 02:31 PM   #15
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Healing and survival

I agree that with a rule that says you die on negative ST, then most people who falls will be "fine", as in will die in half a minute or a minute at the most.

Most people that get injured doesn't die instantly. They bleed out or die from internal injuries hours later despite being healed. Even most victims of car crashes or shooting victims doesn't die instantly.

Sure a dagger to the eye should probably kill you and a (1-1) x3 will not do that instantly. But then again some people survived multiple stabbings to the head or a bullet through their brains. And many people who get shot in the head and dies doesn't die instantly. Some victims get beaten unconscious with clubs and such, and then beaten by multiple people after that on the ground and they still survive. I would say this is more common and it definitely doesn't work in TFT where you jump around, then wobble for one hit and then die, usually without passing by the step called unconscious. It works for a war game but not an RPG.

What I want to give PC are a time buffer. If there is no healing available or no one can get to them in time, then it's over. I would even allow that they are not unconscious but incapacitated so they can whisper their last words in a dramatic way.

One could even add a system for the "bleeding" that is 1 per turn. But for each time you try to heal them you change that by a factor; 1/turn, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hours, 1/day. And as soon as you fail, you can't do more for them, but must hope for another doctor to do it better. That means that you could end up with a fallen PC that "bleeds" out in a few hours or will die from the infection in a few days. Depending on where you are and how far away proper healing and rest is, can be very dramatic.

And we all know that 1/216 means a very real chance of death. 5 people in a party, 5 attacks on average against them, 5 turns per combat and 5 combats in an adventure. That means 2-3 x3 crits on a PC per dungeon. 6-7 x2 crits. A normal broadsword for 2die damage. That means on average with a little average deviation:
15,21,27 damage hits.
6,10,12,16,18,22 damage hits.

Looking at the top damage rolls you have enough to seriously kill a party even with death at negative ST. Maybe not all heroes with one blow, but those are only the crits in that one dungeon with a medium sized weapon…

So a hero with ST12 and chainmail, 3 wounds from earlier attacks and then a crit 27 is instant death. No chain and only ST 10 but without wounds would insta die on 21,22 and 27. And a 15,16 or 18 would put him in serious jeopardy from bleeding to death before the fight is over.

And all that from just one dungeon. And we mostly assumes they heal all normal hits in between fights or go back home to rest up and come back. TFT is deadly! And crits will kill you sooner rather than later. And yet people manage to get their characters up to 40+ points without dying. Statistically speaking it is almost an impossibility. So I say the GM is stacking the dice or adjusting the encounters to play severely in the favor of the PC or the players are exceptionally brilliant paranoiacs. OR they stack up on magical defenses and the villains doesn't, in other words the GM let the PC's have easy wins. So in short, if the rules for dying are too "nice and safe" for your taste, it is very easy to make it harder! The other way, not so much. IF every goblin have the chance to outright kill a PC with one sloppy attack, it is hard to have lots of combats (which is one of TFTs main strengths) and still keep a campaign going with satisfying character story arcs.
Nils_Lindeberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 03:36 PM   #16
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Healing and survival

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
I agree that with a rule that says you die on negative ST, then most people who falls will be "fine", as in will die in half a minute or a minute at the most.

Most people that get injured doesn't die instantly. They bleed out or die from internal injuries hours later despite being healed. Even most victims of car crashes or shooting victims doesn't die instantly.
Ok, but even with a physicker, that also ought to still happen to a lot of people. If you just make it a simple IQ roll to stop it, then you change TFT from a game where most of the fallen die, to one where it's usually very likely you will survive to get cut down by swords and axes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Sure a dagger to the eye should probably kill you and a (1-1) x3 will not do that instantly. But then again some people survived multiple stabbings to the head or a bullet through their brains. And many people who get shot in the head and dies doesn't die instantly. Some victims get beaten unconscious with clubs and such, and then beaten by multiple people after that on the ground and they still survive. I would say this is more common and it definitely doesn't work in TFT where you jump around, then wobble for one hit and then die, usually without passing by the step called unconscious. It works for a war game but not an RPG.
And I agree that the 1-point threshold of unconsciousness is a good thing to widen - I just wouldn't widen it so much that it takes a strong crit to kill anyone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
What I want to give PC are a time buffer. If there is no healing available or no one can get to them in time, then it's over. I would even allow that they are not unconscious but incapacitated so they can whisper their last words in a dramatic way.
And there I'd be more generous, allowing some people to survive without physicking, especially for people just at 0, who just have a lot of minor crushing hits or something. That's why I want the damage done to matter.

Last whispers can be granted by the GM no matter what the damage system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
One could even add a system for the "bleeding" that is 1 per turn. But for each time you try to heal them you change that by a factor; 1/turn, 1/minute, 1/10 minutes, 1/hours, 1/day. And as soon as you fail, you can't do more for them, but must hope for another doctor to do it better. That means that you could end up with a fallen PC that "bleeds" out in a few hours or will die from the infection in a few days. Depending on where you are and how far away proper healing and rest is, can be very dramatic.
Well yes, and this is the sort of thing I do do in GURPS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
And we all know that 1/216 means a very real chance of death. 5 people in a party, 5 attacks on average against them, 5 turns per combat and 5 combats in an adventure. That means 2-3 x3 crits on a PC per dungeon. 6-7 x2 crits. A normal broadsword for 2die damage. That means on average with a little average deviation:
15,21,27 damage hits.
6,10,12,16,18,22 damage hits.
[...]
And crits will kill you sooner rather than later. And yet people manage to get their characters up to 40+ points without dying. Statistically speaking it is almost an impossibility.
[...]
No, it absolutely does not mean that, unless you resolve your adventures with statistics instead of playing them.

If you expose the party to hundreds of 2-die attacks per adventure sure. But that's leaving out the game. Especially because TFT has no active defenses, skillful play of TFT is about avoiding getting attacked as much as possible. You use caution, scouting, tactics, the map, formations, ranged weapons, DX superiority, ganging up, deception, HTH, spells, nets, wounding and taking down the enemy before they attack you, etc etc etc, in order to get attacked and hit as few times as you possibly can.

If you're getting yourself hit by hundreds of 2-die attacks per adventure, then yeah you probably should be cut to ribbons. You learn what you did wrong and develop better tactics for your next party.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 05:02 PM   #17
afschell
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southeastern PA
Default Re: Healing and survival

I think that any fatigue from marching, or any other physical activity, should not count as heavily toward a character's demise than that of spell casting. But I am definitely not certain that fatigue caused by expending your life source to cast a spell should be any less damaging that getting bashed by a mace.

Also, I like the idea of treating non-magical healing by wound, not combat. Survive the event and you can be healed up (relatively) quickly. But watch out for wandering monsters if you only have one healer. And don't run out of bandages.

Now don't blast me too hard for what I'm about to say here because it's still a work in VERY rough progress. But, I am considering house ruling an additional attribute for damage. Initially equal to ST (or maybe 1.5 ST) that can be increased later for a flat 100 XP a point. But all combat related deductions from from that pool, fatigue or physical. Keep track of the different types for healing purposes, but once that value hits 0, you're dead.
afschell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 06:38 PM   #18
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Healing and survival

Quote:
Originally Posted by afschell View Post
I think that any fatigue from marching, or any other physical activity, should not count as heavily toward a character's demise than that of spell casting. But I am definitely not certain that fatigue caused by expending your life source to cast a spell should be any less damaging that getting bashed by a mace.
Sure. That's how it works as published, and how we played with it back in the 1980's (until switching to GURPS, which effectively bumped us onto what many other TFT players came up with as a house rule for TFT, which I'm now sympathetic to).


Quote:
Originally Posted by afschell View Post
Also, I like the idea of treating non-magical healing by wound, not combat. Survive the event and you can be healed up (relatively) quickly. But watch out for wandering monsters if you only have one healer. And don't run out of bandages.
Yes, we always played this way, and I really like the various results.


Quote:
Originally Posted by afschell View Post
Now don't blast me too hard for what I'm about to say here because it's still a work in VERY rough progress. But, I am considering house ruling an additional attribute for damage. Initially equal to ST (or maybe 1.5 ST) that can be increased later for a flat 100 XP a point. But all combat related deductions from from that pool, fatigue or physical. Keep track of the different types for healing purposes, but once that value hits 0, you're dead.
So wizards could use this to have a bunch of spell power without putting it into a staff skill or ST?

My main concerns (not to blast anyone) would be that it would tend to nerf the "everyone can be killed by a certain amount of violence" situation, and make it pretty easy to have a bunch of spellcasting ST... experienced characters would start to weigh whether they wanted to add one attribute point or a pile of hitpoints, and I generally don't like high hitpoints.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2018, 07:05 PM   #19
afschell
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southeastern PA
Default Re: Healing and survival

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
...and I generally don't like high hitpoints.
I definitely agree.

Bottom line ... my biggest fear is that so much GURPS-like "stuff" will creep into the system that it defeats the "old school" feel. GURPS is there if that is the desired type of system. What I want, though, is for TFT:ITL to stay simple, elegant -- and deadly.
afschell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2018, 12:54 AM   #20
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Healing and survival

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
And we all know that 1/216 means a very real chance of death. 5 people in a party, 5 attacks on average against them, 5 turns per combat and 5 combats in an adventure. That means 2-3 x3 crits on a PC per dungeon. 6-7 x2 crits. A normal broadsword for 2die damage. That means on average with a little average deviation:
15,21,27 damage hits.
6,10,12,16,18,22 damage hits.
[...]
And crits will kill you sooner rather than later. And yet people manage to get their characters up to 40+ points without dying. Statistically speaking it is almost an impossibility.
[...]
No, it absolutely does not mean that, unless you resolve your adventures with statistics instead of playing them.

If you expose the party to hundreds of 2-die attacks per adventure sure. But that's leaving out the game. Especially because TFT has no active defenses, skillful play of TFT is about avoiding getting attacked as much as possible. You use caution, scouting, tactics, the map, formations, ranged weapons, DX superiority, ganging up, deception, HTH, spells, nets, wounding and taking down the enemy before they attack you, etc etc etc, in order to get attacked and hit as few times as you possibly can.

If you're getting yourself hit by hundreds of 2-die attacks per adventure, then yeah you probably should be cut to ribbons. You learn what you did wrong and develop better tactics for your next party.
Actually, Nils does make a good point. If a party of 5 get 5 attacks / turn against them for 5 turns per combat during 5 combats, that means there's a 44% chance someone will get triple damage on them during an adventure. You can check my math:

The chance to avoid triple damage in one attack is 1 - 1/216

5 attacks / turn for 5 turns in 5 combats means the chance that none of those rolls will get triple damage is (1 - 1/216)^(5^3), or about 56%, so there's about a 44% chance of getting a triple damage result in an adventure like that.

I think maybe Nils erred by adding in the 5 party members for 5^4 instead of 5^3 but it's only the number of attacks / turn that matters. 5^4 would have made it a LOT worse. There are only 125 attack rolls in that type of adventure, not 625 :).

EDIT: The reason it's a good point is that there's a good chance you'll have one triple damage roll against the PCs in an adventure and triple damage is way out of hand anyway IMHO. It looks like there's an 83% chance you'll get at least one double damage roll against the party -- the average number of double damage rolls in 125 rolls escapes my rusty probability skills.

Last edited by zot; 08-10-2018 at 01:07 AM. Reason: clarification
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.