Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-30-2023, 06:13 AM   #1
Carlos
 
Carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Campos dos Goytacazes - RJ - Brazil
Default is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

In MA127, a fighter who desires more attacks may trade one (and only one) of his attacks for Rapid Strike, a Combination or Dual-Weapon Attack.

So assuming a character that has the following:
  • Melee Skill 15+
  • Weapon Master or Trained by a Master (halving penalties for Rapid Strike)
  • Extra Attack 1

Is it just me or the optimal use of Extra Attack is to feint before making Rapid Strikes?

Scenario 1:
Feint with the Attack maneuver + Using Extra Attack for 2 attacks (or more, if your skill is higher than the example above, which is often the case).

Perhaps I could even imagine another scenario where a character also has the Kiai skill that could push even further that strategy:

Scenario 2:
Turn 1: Rapid Strikes + Kiai
Turn 2: Feint + Rapid Strikes.

What do you think?
Carlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2023, 07:14 AM   #2
mlangsdorf
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

I'd probably go Extra Attack Feint, Rapid Strike Kiai + attack. Assuming a 2 point skill advantage on the Feint, the foe is looking at a -2 to -6 penalty on the defense.

Though with a high Kiai skill, reversing that to Extra Attack Kiai, Rapid Strike Feint + Normal Attack - performed as a Committed Attack (Determine) with double step to move to the foe's flank if possible - might make more sense. If the foe is likely to be stunned, they can't move on their next turn to counter the flank, and my next attack would be a step to their rear and two attacks to the back of the skull. Flank and stun is a -6 to defense (and possibly takes any shield out of consideration) which makes up for the feint probably failing.
__________________
Read my GURPS blog: http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com
mlangsdorf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2023, 02:32 AM   #3
Carlos
 
Carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Campos dos Goytacazes - RJ - Brazil
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
Though with a high Kiai skill, reversing that to Extra Attack Kiai, Rapid Strike Feint + Normal Attack - performed as a Committed Attack (Determine) with double step to move to the foe's flank if possible - might make more sense. If the foe is likely to be stunned, they can't move on their next turn to counter the flank, and my next attack would be a step to their rear and two attacks to the back of the skull. Flank and stun is a -6 to defense (and possibly takes any shield out of consideration) which makes up for the feint probably failing.
Barbarians with Weapon Master, Extra Attack and HT-based Kiai* might make good use of that strategy, as well as Martial Artists.

*- The fact that they can have Power Blow and Kiai based on HT makes an already essential attribute even better, the kind of thing the player would want to max out after ST 25.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
There are many cases where just getting an additional attack using Deceptive Attack will be a better option than throwing a Feint - particularly considering many defenses have iteration penalties (against a mundane foe who is relying on Parry, you're typically looking at a -4 to defend on further attacks that round).
IIRC, the penalties for Feint would apply to all the attacks launched in a Rapid Strike sequence. So if you can make a feint with full skill and your feint is Skill + 4, with a high skill and a good roll, the penalty can be massive, specially against enemies who are very, very, very strong but not as skilled as you.

I gave the early example of Skill 15 because that's the minimum value for a Rapid Strike with TbaM or WM (skill can't be lower than 12). When I play DF characters, they usually have skill 18+, so with 5 points in Feint, that could go up to 22. So a roll of 10, that's a 12 points of margin. Sure, the target should reduce that number, but there's a chance that he will receive a heavy penalty, which makes each additional attack much deadlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Of course, for the price of even baseline Extra Attack (or Extra Attack with both Multistrike and Single Skill), you could have bought a +6 to skill, which would be good for getting two additional attacks at what would otherwise be your full skill, and you get a free +3 to Parry to boot (in addition to other options, like leaning more heavily into a Deceptive Attack).
And that's the reason why I've ignored Extra Attack for so long, as I usually play with characters that have WM or TbaM... Until I realized that rolling a Feint with no penalty and then launching the maximum number of attacks possible can be devastating. The idea is to reduce the enemies' defense as much as possible and following a combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Remember that a feint doesn't burn off active defenses; if you attack someone and they parry, they have a -2 to parry for the rest of the turn.
I'm not sure I got what you mean. Would you mind to elaborate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The core problem with feint is that it's only particularly useful if you're significantly better than your opponent, and if you're significantly better than your opponent you don't really need to feint in the first place.
You don't have to be significantly better than your opponent to profit from a feint. Even with a small difference, a good roll vs a bad roll can still change the outcome of a combat.

And even if you're significantly better than your opponent, it's still a good idea to reduce his active defenses as much possible in order to hit multiple attacks from Rapid Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Extra Attack is also useful if your GM is not using the cinematic option from MA pg 127. "In a cinematic campaign especially a chambara or wuxia one the GM may wish to allow more than two attacks with a Rapid Strike (p. B370)"
That's true. I totally forgot that because we frequently have WM or TbaM in our games, so we are used to assume that as long as you have a minimum effective skill of 12, you can throw as many attacks as you can or want.
Carlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2023, 09:31 AM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
B

I'm not sure I got what you mean. Would you mind to elaborate?
There's a penalty of -2 for using either Parry or Block more than once in a Turn and it adds for each use afterward too.

When you add the chance to roll Active Defense-ignoring Critical Successes with your multiple attacks even one more attack can be a fight-winner.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2023, 07:24 AM   #5
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

It's going to be highly situational, and also a bit dependent on skill - roughly speaking, the higher the character's skill, the more rapid strikes the character can make, and thus the more useful "cashing in" their one extra attack for a full-skill Feint potentially is. It also depends on the foe's skills and defenses - Feint is probably overall the most useful against a foe who has inferior skill (or at least inferior skill with feints - note the Feint technique can shift things here) but comparable defenses (due to All Out Defense, Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Defences, using a staff or shield, etc) to you. There are many cases where just getting an additional attack using Deceptive Attack will be a better option than throwing a Feint - particularly considering many defenses have iteration penalties (against a mundane foe who is relying on Parry, you're typically looking at a -4 to defend on further attacks that round).

If you've got Extra Attack (Multistrike*), turning it into a feint certainly isn't a horrible idea. Of course, for the price of even baseline Extra Attack (or Extra Attack with both Multistrike and Single Skill), you could have bought a +6 to skill, which would be good for getting two additional attacks at what would otherwise be your full skill, and you get a free +3 to Parry to boot (in addition to other options, like leaning more heavily into a Deceptive Attack). Extra Attack is typically only worth it if you intend to mix and match several different skills and attack modes (like swinging a sword and shooting eyebeams, stabbing with a spear and kicking, etc), and this is even more true for characters with Trained by a Master and/or Weapon Master.

*Note Extra Attack by default requires you to use different limbs for each attack, so unless you're dual-wielding you'll need this to both feint and attack with the same weapon.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2023, 10:21 AM   #6
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

Remember that a feint doesn't burn off active defenses; if you attack someone and they parry, they have a -2 to parry for the rest of the turn.

The core problem with feint is that it's only particularly useful if you're significantly better than your opponent, and if you're significantly better than your opponent you don't really need to feint in the first place.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2023, 11:13 AM   #7
sjmdw45
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If you've got Extra Attack (Multistrike*), turning it into a feint certainly isn't a horrible idea. Of course, for the price of even baseline Extra Attack (or Extra Attack with both Multistrike and Single Skill), you could have bought a +6 to skill, which would be good for getting two additional attacks at what would otherwise be your full skill, and you get a free +3 to Parry to boot (in addition to other options, like leaning more heavily into a Deceptive Attack). Extra Attack is typically only worth it if you intend to mix and match several different skills and attack modes (like swinging a sword and shooting eyebeams, stabbing with a spear and kicking, etc), and this is even more true for characters with Trained by a Master and/or Weapon Master.
Extra Attack is also useful if your GM is not using the cinematic option from MA pg 127. "In a cinematic campaign – especially a chambara or wuxia one – the GM may wish to allow more than two attacks with a Rapid Strike (p. B370)"

For example, DFRPG doesn't use it.

Feints are particularly good against opponents with high Dodge, especially if they retreat and/or Acrobatic Dodge.
sjmdw45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2023, 09:00 AM   #8
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Extra Attack is also useful if your GM is not using the cinematic option from MA pg 127.
You have to use the cinematic option from MA of allowing for Multistrike on Extra Attack anyway; it seems odd to use one option (EA:MS) but not the other (Very Rapid Strike). But, yes, if the GM has set up such a limitation, EA can be the only way to get more than two attacks without going All Out or having ATR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
And that's the reason why I've ignored Extra Attack for so long, as I usually play with characters that have WM or TbaM... Until I realized that rolling a Feint with no penalty and then launching the maximum number of attacks possible can be devastating. The idea is to reduce the enemies' defense as much as possible and following a combo.
Maybe so, maybe no - it will be situational. Consider a character who, as a base, has Combat Reflexes, Weapon Master (Broadsword) and Broadsword 18 (for Parry 13). We'll throw them up against a foe with Combat Reflexes, no WM or TbaM, and Broadsword 16 (for Parry 12).

Our swordmaster could spend an additional [30] on Feint+4 [5] and Extra Attack (Multistrike +20%; Single Skill, Broadsword -20%) [25], gaining the ability to Feint at 22, then attack 2 times at skill 13 (-3 for Rapid Strike, -2 for Deceptive Attack), with a decent shot at hitting with both attacks. On average, the Feint will impose a -6 to the target's defenses, dropping to Parry 6, which further drops to 5, most likely meaning both attacks connect.

Our swordmaster could instead spend those [30] - actually just [28] with [2] left over - for a +7 to Broadsword, boosting to Broadsword 25 (for Parry 16). The swordmaster can now attack four times and impose a -1 to defense via Deceptive Attack at the skill 14, with a comparable probability of landing all four attacks as the feinting swordmaster had of landing two (two attacks at 13 have a ~70% chance of hitting with both; four attacks at 14 have a ~68% chance of hitting with all four). The foe would Parry the first attack at 12, and likely succeed - but then their next Parry is at 8 and will likely fail, and the next two are functionally at 4.

So, the latter build enjoys a +3 to Parry and will probably hit with 3 attacks, while the former build would only hit with 2 attacks. Of course, if the foe has a decent Dodge score, Feinting will be more useful, as the Parry iteration penalty of -4 per additional Parry doesn't affect Dodging, while the penalty from the Feint does.

Overall, I'd say more skill is better than Extra Attack + Feint. But the EA+Feint build would certainly be workable (and arguably would be a bit less boring than pumping everything into Broadsword and attack-attack-attacking). There's also the possibility of a hybrid build, where you just take +6 to Broadsword [24] instead of Extra Attack and put it alongside Feint+4 [5]. In that case, you could do a 3 attack Rapid Strike, dropping skill from 24 to 18, throw a Feint at 22 (the same as with the Extra Attack build), and then impose a -2 to the foe's defenses via Deceptive Attack, attacking twice at skill 14.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2023, 09:26 AM   #9
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Overall, I'd say more skill is better than Extra Attack + Feint. But the EA+Feint build would certainly be workable
I've only run the more-skill version, but I'd certainly take it over Extra Attack in the campaign I'm currently playing. If you can do the arithmetic for multiple attacks, hit locations and deceptive attacks rapidly, it's wonderfully flexible, allowing you to optimise against almost any opponent.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2023, 05:53 AM   #10
Carlos
 
Carlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Campos dos Goytacazes - RJ - Brazil
Default Re: is Feint the best use for Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM?

Although I tend to agree that +6 to a single skill is better than Extra Attack if you have TbaM or WM (which I recently find questionable, because extra attack can apply to any skill), the main point of this thread is not to ask if Extra Attack is better than +6 to a main melee skill.

My question is: Once you have Extra Attack, is there any usage for Extra Attack that's better than a full skill Feint before a succession of Rapid Strikes? In other words, what is the optimal use of Extra Attack in terms of finishing a melee combat as soon as possible.
Carlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
extra attack, multistrike, trained by a master, weapon master

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.