Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

[philosophyguy]

I'm about to play a 100 point character in a TL 3 world, and I'm trying to think about how to efficiently build a character with ranged fighting capability. This character's niche is in non-combat skills like influence skills and perception skills, but I would like to add some combat abilities so the character doesn't just stand around in a fight.

The character will be playing second fiddle to other PCs in combat, and I'm okay with that. I'm trying to figure out how to point-efficiently make a character that can contribute something to combat.

The problem I'm having is that the character seems like a better fit for ranged combat than melee, but range penalties make it really hard to create a ranged combatant that has a chance of surviving.

If the PC wants to be able to defend, he or she needs to be shooting when the NPC is at least two turns away (one turn to shoot and have the NPC move closer, one turn to ready a shield or other defensive weapon, or run away). Most human NPCs have move 4-5, sometimes 6, so that's a distance of 8-12 yards, which corresponds to a range penalty of -4 or -5.

Let's say that our goal is to get to an effective skill of 10, for a 50% chance of a possible hit. With those range penalties, the PC needs a base skill of 14 or 15.

For an easy ranged skill, like thrown knives, that would require either 12 points (default DX of 10+4) or 8 points if the PC took DX 11 (for a +20 points, which could be amortized over a variety of DX skills). For an average skill, like Bow, the point total is 16 or 12 + amortized DX. Additional levels of DX would be helpful in a vacuum, but for this character concept the tradeoff with IQ skills is tough to justify.

So, we're looking at over 10 points of character, or 10% of the character value, to add a single ranged combat skill that is minimally effective. This skill will cause damage less than half the time (50% possible hits - successful active defense) and isn't likely to inflict much damage.

Is there a better way to add some ranged capacities to this character? Again, the point isn't to be a ranged hero—it's to have some positive impact in combat.

(I'm asking this question after reading Douglas Cole's blog on Skill Levels for Ranged Combat. I'm hoping to get some more discussion about how to think about these options in low-powered situations.)

[dfinlay]

Originally Posted by philosophyguy

I'm about to play a 100 point character in a TL 3 world, and I'm trying to think about how to efficiently build a character with ranged fighting capability. This character's niche is in non-combat skills like influence skills and perception skills, but I would like to add some combat abilities so the character doesn't just stand around in a fight.

The character will be playing second fiddle to other PCs in combat, and I'm okay with that. I'm trying to figure out how to point-efficiently make a character that can contribute something to combat.

The problem I'm having is that the character seems like a better fit for ranged combat than melee, but range penalties make it really hard to create a ranged combatant that has a chance of surviving.

If the PC wants to be able to defend, he or she needs to be shooting when the NPC is at least two turns away (one turn to shoot and have the NPC move closer, one turn to ready a shield or other defensive weapon, or run away). Most human NPCs have move 4-5, sometimes 6, so that's a distance of 8-12 yards, which corresponds to a range penalty of -4 or -5.

Let's say that our goal is to get to an effective skill of 10, for a 50% chance of a possible hit. With those range penalties, the PC needs a base skill of 14 or 15.

For an easy ranged skill, like thrown knives, that would require either 12 points (default DX of 10+4) or 8 points if the PC took DX 11 (for a +20 points, which could be amortized over a variety of DX skills). For an average skill, like Bow, the point total is 16 or 12 + amortized DX. Additional levels of DX would be helpful in a vacuum, but for this character concept the tradeoff with IQ skills is tough to justify.

So, we're looking at over 10 points of character, or 10% of the character value, to add a single ranged combat skill that is minimally effective. This skill will cause damage less than half the time (50% possible hits - successful active defense) and isn't likely to inflict much damage.

Is there a better way to add some ranged capacities to this character? Again, the point isn't to be a ranged hero—it's to have some positive impact in combat.

(I'm asking this question after reading Douglas Cole's blog on Skill Levels for Ranged Combat. I'm hoping to get some more discussion about how to think about these options in low-powered situations.)

You seem to be forgetting about Aiming. A crossbow, for example, has an Acc of 4 IIRC, which can give up to a +6 to hit with full aim. I also believe that can be upgraded further with the quality weapons rules in LowTech At low skill, ranged characters should rarely be firing even every other turn.

[Donny Brook]

Are you allowed to take Telescopic Vision (perhaps as a gadget)?

[Landwalker]

I would have a couple of questions for you, here:

1. Is this a combat-centric campaign?
   
   If it is, 10% of your point budget is far too little to commit to a major, or even the major, element of the campaign.
   
   
2. Is your expectation of the typical engagementstarting distance a mere 12 yards?
   
   If so, then in order to meaningfully contribute as a ranged combatant, you need to be able to rely on your teammates to make sure the enemy doesn't reach you in melee, and you need to be good enough not to hit your teammates, either. You need to be able to attack quickly (because at those distances, things can go sideways for you in a bad way if you're slow). That means Fast Draw at a respectable level, and it means not using slow weapons like crossbows. You might be able to get away with thrown weapons, but 1) They're much easier for your opponent to defend against (unless you can get behind them first! Then they're impossible to defend against), 2) They're individually more expensive than arrows or sling bullets, and 3) They're much heavier, so you can carry far fewer of them.
   
   The good news about thrown weapons is that most of them can double as melee weapons. So while it wouldn't improve your point-efficiency, it would at least improve your action economy.

Basically, what I'm getting at is this: Is a non-combat niche character focused on influence and perception appropriate to the campaign, and what is the most likely combat scenario you'll wind up in? If the character concept isn't appropriate to the campaign, then there's your problem right off the bat. If they are, but there's still going to be a combat element, then I would still recommend making a decent investment in combat competency. You don't want to skimp on staying alive.

If you're hell-bent on ranged combat at short distances, you need to have good skill (especially if you don't have time to Aim), and you need to be able to act quickly (meaning investing in Fast Draw). Thrown weapons are action-efficient, since they can double in melee (javelins, knives, even throwing axes), but they're not efficient in any other sense. Your best other options are probably slings and bows, although Sling is a hard skill. Either way, you're going to need a decent amount of actual combat skill. Don't look at 10% of character value and think "Man, that's way too much to spend on not dying."

You might have to reorient your attitude towards the social side. Having social and perception skills in the 12-13 neighborhood is not a bad starting point for a 100-point character by any stretch. You don't have to spring for 16+ skill in all that stuff right off the bat.


(Closing note: Of course, if you're willing to have your ranged contribution be a single "fire-and-forget" shot, then Crossbow (DX/E) + Aim is a good way to go. Cheap skill, decent Acc, tolerable damage. But at close ranges, don't plan on taking more than a single shot with it.)

[weby]

The problem is that low points=low skill=bad ranged effective skill usually, specially so in low tech games.

It is much easier to get reasonable melee ability due to the lack of range penalties.

The only way to counter range penalties them well enough is with aiming, but that further slows down the slow attack speed. Thus any weapon type that has low acc is normally not a good idea.

This basically leaves: Crossbow,Long Bow,Composite bow, Javelin and Atlatl with javelin.

Of these Crossbow and Thrown weapon are easy, bow and spear thrower are average.

Crossbow is the most accurate but is very slow, you will not get off many shots in a typical combat. But it is fairly easy to brace for further +1 to hit, so if you have all the time in the world to aim you can at skill 12 attempt to hit at 50 yards(12+4acc+2extra turns+1brace-8range=11 to hit). Aimed shots at 10 yards are fairly easy being at base skill even without extra aiming or bracing. One further drawback is that it requires 2 hands. Does excellent damage if it hits. Thr+4 is a lot even for a ST 10 man.

Bow is faster, but in effect you lose 2 accuracy:1 for harder skill, 1 for less accuracy, here aimed shots at 10 yards are at -2 skill as base.

Thrown javelin has certain big benefits, it is one effective accuracy easier than bow one less than crossbow. At 10 yards you will hit at skill -1 after one round of aiming, But as long as your javelins last you can throw then fairly fast. At DX 11 even a single point in fast draw javelin will give you 62.5% probability of being able to attack every second round(fastdraw+aim, then throw). Further javelins only take one hand, so you can use a shield, they also double as melee weapons in a pinch, so if you have a weapon in hand for parries. The downsides are that the damage is fairly poor, you cannot even attempt attacks too far due to maximum range limit and the javelins are fairly heavy if you want to carry many.

Spear thrower does significantly more damage if you have high ST due to being swing, but at lower point totals you normally do not have that and thus there is no real benefit for it compared to the other options. For a ST 10 man it thus does +2 damage compared to a thrown javelin, but you need two hands to load it and the effective accuracy is as low as for a bow.

So the options really seem to boil down to two:
Crossbow: slow fire, can easily carry more ammunition, hits best, does best damage, doe not allow shield.
Thrown weapon javelin: fast fire, limited ammunition carry capacity, hits next best, does fairly low damage. Allows a shield and if shield used then with just 1-2 points in spear skill allows a reasonable parry.

[RyanW]

Just keep in mind that contributing to combat need not mean killing enemies, and I'm not even talking about noncombat support roles (like medic). Even if, after active defenses, you're only hitting 25% off the time, you're still forcing the enemy to use an active defense much more often than that. That means burning up blocks, no cheap All Out Attacks, spoiled aims, rolls to maintain concentration.

[Kalzazz]

I would see about asking the DM about allowing Fast Draw for Hatchets

This is a good thread http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=60642&page=3

See post #28 for a Kromm reply to my question asking about Fast Draw and Hatchets

Id consider Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace), Fast Draw Hatchet, Axe/Mace and Shield

Get a throwing axe, a hatchet (or two), and a medium light shield . . . keep your shield and your throwing axe out. Aim with the throwing axe until the enemy is 1 round away from melee, then throw it and fast draw your hatchet and it is on! With not needing to have a spare round to ready a weapon by using fast draw, you can get an extra round of aiming and let the enemy get closer before throwing.

The hatchet can be thrown or used in melee, and it can be parried with as well as thrown, and is cheap and light. The shield can help your dodge and against ranged attacks as well as your parries and block.

A medium light shield weighs 7lbs, a hatchet 2lbs. 4lbs goes for buying clothes.

You have 16lbs to spend, a 2 hatchets, a medium light shield, and a throwing axe is 15lbs, so this loadout is 19lbs with clothes (a huge incentive to fight naked in GURPS!). Ditch your backpack before the rumble begins to get down to zero encumbrance and get your shield on your arm and your throwing axe in hand.

Throwing Axe is Acc 2, so if you aim you have a good shot at hitting a few yards out, and you'll do Sw+2 cut! That can hurt

The Shield, 2 hatchets, and the throwing axe together add up to 185 moneys . . . so isn't a huge investment either

Id spend
2pts in Thrown Weapon Axe/Mace (get to 11, so have a 50/50 shot at connecting with an unaimed shot 3 yds away, or Aimed with a throwing Axe at 7yds)
2pts in Axe/Mace (gets to 10, 50/50 shot at landing a possible hit in melee)
2pts in Fast Draw (Hatchet), better than 50/50 shot at actually successfully fast drawing a hatchet
4pts in Shield (gets to 12, so you can actually do a block better than your dodge . . . also if you really want you can even hit someone with the shield . . . it will do almost no damage, but is an option)

It is really hard designing a fighter type on 10pts!

[VariousRen]

If your heart is set on a ranged character, a crossbow is the way to go. Very good aim bonuses lets you put one or two points into it to get it up to 11 or 12, and hit from 50+ yards out. You can either use a ST 10 crossbow and reload it for a few more shots, or carry the biggest crossbow you can convince your DM to let you buy and take down the most dangerous threat. Whenever possible fire so that the bolt might hit people behind your intended target if they dodge, and for light shields check for blow through. Bodkin bolts are great for punching through shields and hits to the vitals at 10-ish yards away. Get a winch for the crossbow so you can reload it yourself out of combat (it's a couple of minutes work), and a ST 20 something crossbow will give you 2d6+2ish impaling, or piercing(2) with bodkin (x3 to the vitals makes this devastating, a real knight killer).

If the DM allows it though, a better point investment might be in the staff skill and the sacrificial parry perk. Staffs are great at defending (defensive grip for an even larger bonus), and you can save the main fighters from having to use up one of their high skill parries, or from a blow they can't defend against.

Actually, for ~10 points it's possible to get both. 4 points in staff for DX+1 (skill 11) gives a parry of 11, 12 in defensive grip and 14 if you all out parry. 1 point in sacrificial parry to defend other people. 4 points in crossbow buys DX+2 (Skill 12), Brace and aim gives a final skill of 18. Eat a -4 for range and -3 for the vitals and you are putting a big threat down at the start of a fight 65% of the time before dodge. Finally put 1 point into fast draw for your staff (if allowed) so you can get it out quickly if you need to. A point in first aid for bandaging people is a good idea even if you have a dedicated medic (sometimes they go down first).

From there, a balanced staff gives +1 to parry (it's dirt cheap if you want to start with it anyway). Both skills are now expensive to raise, so it's questionable if they are worth it or if your points are better spent somewhere else. Fine bolts for the crossbow are nice, and a fine crossbow gives you a longer max range (which you can actually hit sometimes with aim and brace).

[Kalzazz]

I don't think you can have a balanced staff sadly

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I don't think you can have a balanced staff sadly

Nope. Not even in DF.