Only While Injured

[Bruno]

The obvious breakpoints I can eyeball from here:

• 1/3 HP lost, 1/2 HP lost and 2/3 HP lost (from the Symptoms enhancement for Innate Attacks and suchlike).

  1/3 and 1/2 HP lost also match the crippling thresholds for minor/major extremities, and 2/3 HP lost is the breakpoint for halving your Move and Dodge.

• 0 HP left

  This is the threshold for conciousness checks, and all sorts of fun stuff in Supernatural Durability

• -1 * HP left, and further whole-multiples up to -4 * HP left

  -1 * HP left is the first death check, and also where Fragile (Unnatural) kills you on the spot. Further multiples are further death checks. I would generally invalidate -5 * HP and below as "automatic death" generally makes most advantages useless, and has only dubious or esoteric relevance to Extra Life and Unkillable.

I might buy into -5% per each one of those breakpoints as the general limitation. I'm skeptical about higher values, and I'd be quite concerned about anything over -10%/level

[Bruno]

Compare Trigger: Injury, Powers page 106.
Trigger powers one use for one minute for each injury. -15% The Trigger requires you to take at least 1 HP of injury for each use or minute of the advantage. This is different from Costs HP, as the limitation itself provides the mechanism to "injure" yourself, whereas the Trigger can be defeated by restraints, paralysis, etc. But the Trigger and Costs HP are clearly related.

An "Only while injured" limitation would allow you to use the advantage as many times as you wished until you healed. It might take 4 points of injury to take you to 1/3 HPs lost, but for most people that's worth at least a day of usage, probably two or even more if you're not resting and healing, not just a minute. That's at least 1440 times as much usage, if not more.

[Anders]

Oh and it shouldn't stack with "Emergencies only."

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Compare Trigger: Injury ... "Only while injured" limitation would allow you to use the advantage as many times as you wished until you healed.

I agree with you that the two should be compared, however the former in this case can be healed back a second after the trigger (or even within the same second as the event which triggered it) leaving you on full health and using your ability for the rest of the minute. The latter requires you to be on reduced HP (a percentile HP reduction too) continually for you to gain the benefit for that extended duration. It therefore leaves you significantly exposed to getting to those Death Checks quicker.

Of cause, 1/3 HP loss and to an extent even 1/2 HP loss isn't really that much of concern, you've suffered no actual penalties from being that low on HP yet. As such I'd agree that -5% for 1/3 loss and -10% for 1/2 loss makes sense and anything more is milking it.
Past that point I can see more noteworthy limitation values, if something only comes into effect (and only remains in effect) when you get to your first Death Check at -1 * HP then the chances are you're not in much shape to make too much use of it (what with reduced Move, Dodge and a roll every turn you do anything just to stay concious) -50% seems quite fair by this point, even -75% wouldn't be stretching it IMO (subject to GM approval due to obvious abuse issues).

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Compare Trigger: Injury, Powers page 106.
Trigger powers one use for one minute for each injury. -15% The Trigger requires you to take at least 1 HP of injury for each use or minute of the advantage.

Personally, I believe Powers offers a wrong interpretation of 'dangerous' to arrive at the -15% price.

Characters sez:
"Multiply the limitation value by 1.5
if the Trigger is illegal, addictive, or
otherwise dangerous."

Powers sez:
"... a desperate hero can nearly
always find a way to wound himself,
this Trigger is Very Common . . . and
since injury is by definition dangerous,
the limitation is worth -15%."

I sez: The variations of dangerous in Characters appear to invoke the concept of risk. You might get caught, you could become addicted. Injury on the other hand is not danger, it is harm. Harm and danger are different -- harm flows from danger, is a result (probabilistically) of danger, and so is not the same as it. It's like GURPs Damage and Injury. Damage is dangerous, it could produce Injury.

This is different from Costs HP, as the limitation itself provides the mechanism to "injure" yourself, whereas the Trigger can be defeated by restraints, paralysis, etc. But the Trigger and Costs HP are clearly related.

Could you point me at the rules for Costs HP, I can't seem to find them.

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

... if something only comes into effect (and only remains in effect) when you get to your first Death Check at -1 * HP then the chances are you're not in much shape to make too much use of it (what with reduced Move, Dodge and a roll every turn you do anything just to stay concious) -50% seems quite fair by this point, even -75% wouldn't be stretching it IMO ...

Even -75% seems absurdly stingy IMO. Or perhaps such a limitation is just so impractical that pricing it doesn't work. Or maybe my imagination is just stunted -- when might a player consider such a limitation?

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Or perhaps such a limitation is just so impractical that pricing it doesn't work. Or maybe my imagination is just stunted -- when might a player consider such a limitation?

It's impractical, but not without use.

• A monster that becomes hard to kill the more its injured (and therefore dissuading plinking tactics) would very much have advantages tied to their current HP level.
• A barbarian who can 'rage' more potently (or only) when on lower HP would need this sort of limitation.
• A magma elemental/creature that starts off looking like rock but the more they get damaged the more their outer shell start to crack releasing hotter and more potent fire aura effects would need this sort of limitation (infact they'd probably want something linked into ablative DR too).
• A creature that starts to become more and more defuse as they get injured (ie smashed apart), effectively turning into a swarm of smaller creatures would want to link that into HP loss.
• Any variant on Emergencies Only which only functions due to injury rather than dangerous situations would benefit from this.
• Anyone with a lot of death themed powers (so necromancers and the like) could logically get more powerful or gain access to new abilities the closer they are to the grave (more so if they've flirted a death check and gotten away with it).
• Masochists and martyrs, or any rituals/beliefs that require self-flagellation may require you to be bought down to low or minus HPs (by any means) to unlock insights or charismatic sway large enough to fuel revolutions etc.
• Blood magic may require open wounds before you can use it (and then still demand Costs HP to use) so would be in need of some level of this, perhaps a different grade of HP loss per level of Magery so that the more bloodied you are the more potent the effects.
• Any form of Delusion that's linked to injury like "I'm INVINCIBLE!" or "It's only a scratch" would be logically be worth less and therefore would need this limitation. Or just any Disadvantage that only applies when severely injured, like Bloodlust or Fearfulness

I'm sure I could think up more, but I think I've illustrated how it an be befitting and a logical prerequisite to a number of setups.

[Kuroshima]

Don't forget Alternate Form with only under 0 HP, Reciprocal Rest and No reciprcal damage (with an optional mximum duration) for anime-esque second winds. I have used it in the past, and it works beautifully, thouh I used -40% accessibility as per Powers.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The obvious breakpoints I can eyeball from here:

• 1/3 HP lost, 1/2 HP lost and 2/3 HP lost (from the Symptoms enhancement for Innate Attacks and suchlike).

  1/3 and 1/2 HP lost also match the crippling thresholds for minor/major extremities, and 2/3 HP lost is the breakpoint for halving your Move and Dodge.

• 0 HP left

  This is the threshold for conciousness checks, and all sorts of fun stuff in Supernatural Durability

• -1 * HP left, and further whole-multiples up to -4 * HP left

  -1 * HP left is the first death check, and also where Fragile (Unnatural) kills you on the spot. Further multiples are further death checks. I would generally invalidate -5 * HP and below as "automatic death" generally makes most advantages useless, and has only dubious or esoteric relevance to Extra Life and Unkillable.

I might buy into -5% per each one of those breakpoints as the general limitation. I'm skeptical about higher values, and I'd be quite concerned about anything over -10%/level

Originally Posted by Bruno

Compare Trigger: Injury, Powers page 106.
Trigger powers one use for one minute for each injury. -15% The Trigger requires you to take at least 1 HP of injury for each use or minute of the advantage. This is different from Costs HP, as the limitation itself provides the mechanism to "injure" yourself, whereas the Trigger can be defeated by restraints, paralysis, etc. But the Trigger and Costs HP are clearly related.

An "Only while injured" limitation would allow you to use the advantage as many times as you wished until you healed. It might take 4 points of injury to take you to 1/3 HPs lost, but for most people that's worth at least a day of usage, probably two or even more if you're not resting and healing, not just a minute. That's at least 1440 times as much usage, if not more.

Hmm... valid points, especially the comparison with Costs HP. I think the most basic form of OWI matches fairly well with Costs 1HP, the former's vulnerability slightly offsetting the latter's time restriction. Not to say they should be valued the same.

Maybe (using your chart) the value should scale up faster according to the severity required by the limitation.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Could you point me at the rules for Costs HP, I can't seem to find them.

Powers, p110.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Powers, p110.

Thanks muchly!

Now I see why I didn't know where to find it -- it's priced even worse than Costs Fatigue, and I'd never take it.