Ambidexterity and High Pain Threshold: easy to abuse?

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Or that people with such abilities will naturally gravitate towards occupations where those abilities will be useful. All the warriors have (as in many campaigns I've been in) at least two of HPT, Danger Sense, and Combat Reflexes? Well, of course they do. If you've got that combination, you're already a natural-born warrior!

Exactly, Ambidexterity is easy enough to train, and something which in the real world many people train in, it isn't underpriced at all, it just looks it because Off-Hand Weapon Training is overpriced.

High Pain Threshold is one of those things which is also trainable, and something which any hardened warrior, or entrepid adventurer would either start with, or eventually pick up along his adventures. It's the people who don't have HPT, or who have LPT, that stand out as not being the front line types.

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Morudrane

Considering the setting is basically medieval with touches of magic and mysticism, I limited AD in the most draconian way: 3d roll, a score of 3 is required to buy the advantage.

I wouldn't have even done this. Either allow it or disallow it. Require an unusual background cost if you feel it is rare or even supernatural.

I completely disagree with you on the motivation behind limiting the advantages, but then again it's not my game. You are the one who has to choose what is allowed in your campaigns.

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Exactly, Ambidexterity is easy enough to train, and something which in the real world many people train in, it isn't underpriced at all, it just looks it because Off-Hand Weapon Training is overpriced.

High Pain Threshold is one of those things which is also trainable, and something which any hardened warrior, or entrepid adventurer would either start with, or eventually pick up along his adventures. It's the people who don't have HPT, or who have LPT, that stand out as not being the front line types.

I was going to type this.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Morudrane

After all, AD is very rare even in real life, so there are little chances one was born with that feat.

(...)

This is my first GURPS campaign so correct me if I'm wrong, but is HPT to be considered very rare?

I'm a little curious: is it your intention that the PCs should be "ordinary folks" and/or represent a random sampling of the population? (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) The reason I ask is because I mean to point out that heroic adventurers are exceptional people more or less by definition.. so if the party is intended to be a band of heroes, it's reasonable for them to have skills and abilities that most people might not. (If they didn't have them, they might not be adventurers!)

Either way, if you intend to limit certain abilities to a certain number of PCs without prohibiting them altogether, I would avoid having random rolls determine which players are allowed to make characters with a given ability and which aren't (unless all the players are okay with this, in which case, who cares?). I think the bidding suggestion Extrarius made earlier is a good one, and if you can get all the players together for character creation, it need not be a slow process.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Either way, if you intend to limit certain abilities to a certain number of PCs without prohibiting them altogether, I would avoid having random rolls determine which players are allowed to make characters with a given ability and which aren't (unless all the players are okay with this, in which case, who cares?).

I quite agree. One of the great things about a point-based system, from a player's point of view, is that you can build the character you want to play, not the character allocated to you by the fall of the dice, and going back to the dice is a bit of a step backward. By all means, institute a bidding system. Or write the names of advantages on slips of paper and have the players draw them out of a hat, allowing them to either take the advantage or trade it to someone else. Anything, really, which gives the players as much say in the matter as possible while still being consistent with the campaign.

[LateCustomer]

I skimmed through the responses so my apologies if anyone already said something similar.

Unless you're aiming to enforce what you see as your setting's reality, I say let the players buy HPT and Ambidex. if they're built on 75pts, then they've already used up 15pts which could have been well spent on skills.

Assuming that your campaign won't be too combat heavy, then those missing skills will begin to stand out like a sore thumb.

Good luck with your game.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Exactly, Ambidexterity is easy enough to train, and something which in the real world many people train in, it isn't underpriced at all, it just looks it because Off-Hand Weapon Training is overpriced.

Well, OHWT is priced as any other Technique. IMHO, Techniques in general are overpriced, but it is no particular fault of OHWT's price. As for AD's individual value, what I like is that it allows parrying without the -2 for the off-hand. Which is cool compared to buying up Enhanced Parry for the purpose of parrying multiple times... AND it's cool when you weid two different weapons in DWA.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

High Pain Threshold is one of those things which is also trainable, and something which any hardened warrior, or entrepid adventurer would either start with, or eventually pick up along his adventures. It's the people who don't have HPT, or who have LPT, that stand out as not being the front line types.

IME HPT is rather popular. Ignoring shock and resistance to torture are fairly priced at 10pts. However, the essentially three free levels of Hard to Subdue are the cheat, as is the ability to shrug off Agony and get +3 against pain-related Afflictions on the HT roll.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Morudrane

I'm running a Fantasy campaign (75 cp, 25 cp as disadvantages cap), and obviously all the warriors (and sometimes even magic users) want to start with Ambidexterity and High Pain Threshold.

I can't see why AD is "obvious", but I definitely agree that HPT is a no-brainer. HPT and Combat Reflexes are the two traits that every warrior should take if he can afford it.

Now, having 3 warriors with AD in a party is not "Fantasy", it's just stupid. Considering the setting is basically medieval with touches of magic and mysticism, I limited AD in the most draconian way: 3d roll, a score of 3 is required to buy the advantage.

Ack. Look, it's your game and all, but I have to tell you that I wouldn't play with a GM who did that. Either allow it, disallow it, or charge an Unusual Background for it, but don't act like you're allowing it by letting the dice decide.

After all, AD is very rare even in real life, so there are little chances one was born with that feat. A little bit of complaining here and there (power playing is always behind the corner) but the PC's got my point.

GURPS Martial Arts will, among other things, make it clear that Ambidexterity most definitely can be learned, so I think you're making an issue out of a non-issue. There's nothing "very rare even in real life" about warriors who train for years to fight with both hands equally well.

Also, what on earth is there to abuse? Ambidexterity doesn't give you extra attacks or extra defenses or anything. All it does is remove the -4 penalty if your good hand gets injured and you need to fight with the other one. It's useful if you plan on doing lots and lots of Dual Weapon Attacks, but that's about it. It's worth the 5 points, no more, as it's a pretty weak advantage.

High Pain Threshold, while not being an unlikely feat like AD, is another big issue. This is my first GURPS campaign so correct me if I'm wrong, but is HPT to be considered very rare? Because if that's not the case, and any PC's allowed buy it, HPT seems a bit overpowered for its cost (merely 10 CP). One might argue that the bonuses it grants are conditional (injury), but not suffering from any shock penalty ever and +3 to KD and Stunning is a lot for only 10 points.

No, it's about right. What you describe is worth about 10 points. Consider this -- if you were to theoretically allow your PCs to build Talents for the skills they'd be using in combat*, you'd end up with a 5 pt/lvl Talent. So take 4 levels of that Talent and apply the -50% limitation, "Only when injured", and you get 10 points. The similar bonus to KD/Stunning is offset by the lack of reaction bonuses and learning time. It works out pretty much on the nose.

* No, this isn't usually allowed or recommended. As I said, IF you were...

Besides, I always considered shock penalty a cornerstone of GURPS combat system: it means that if you attack first and deal damage you might have the upper hand, which is realistic and very fun to play.

Your players obviously disagree. This sounds less like a system issue and more like a paradigm issue -- I think you and they want to play two slightly different games. I'd recommend talking to them about this.

I don't understand why other powerful advantages like, say, Combat Reflexes (which I'd discard immediately in favor of HPT, should I think in terms of being "stronger") cost around 15 cp while HPT is quite cheap.

Combat Reflexes is actually a bit undercosted for what it gives compared to both AD and HPT, actually. +1 to every single defense is a huge advantage. The ability to never freeze in combat is wonderful, as well, along with the +2 to Fright Checks and +1 to Fast Draw. It's probably the best package in the game. The designers actually kept its price a bit lower than it probably should be to encourage warriors to take it.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Molokh

As for AD's individual value, what I like is that it allows parrying without the -2 for the off-hand.

Not an issue if the fighter uses a Knife Main-Gauche or a shield as is typical in most settings, which makes the AD a luxury of points better spent elsewhere unless the character concept calls for it.

Originally Posted by Molokh

it's cool when you wield two different weapons in DWA.

Though you still need to have two separate DWA techniques, one for each different weapon.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Morudrane

I don't understand why other powerful advantages like, say, Combat Reflexes (which I'd discard immediately in favor of HPT, should I think in terms of being "stronger") cost around 15 cp while HPT is quite cheap.

Tastes vary. I prefer Combat Reflexes to High Pain Threshold though both are worthwhile for a fighter-type. Ambidexterity has never been that popular though.

Why (what rules) are you using to make them so useful? Do you have duel wielding fighters? A lot of hand injuries? Are the players trying to take advantage of multiple parries without getting lots of penalties?

A few quick thoughts:
-Points in your primary attack skill usually are better than buying bonuses that only apply in situations that you would rather not be in (injured).

-Dual attacks are an optional ability that defaults to skill-4. If you up your skill +1 instead of buying Ambidexterity (saving 1 point) you can Rapid Strike at -6 (overall -1 worse) and carry a shield instead. This is still 2 attacks, but much better overall defense.

-Shields are very cool. They add their DB even when you aren't blocking. Good skill (14+) and a shield (+2) can easily get your defenses in the 12-15 range.

-Defending isn't penalized by shock and shock caps at -4 penalty anyway. Spending 8 (instead of 10 on HPT) can give you a +2 skill that works even when you're not attacked first.

-Allow "weapon master" for reduced parrying penalties and additional damage. It's appropriate for cinematic fighters (though the associated cinematic skills are a bit over the top so I generally don't allow those).