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Old 07-19-2010, 10:06 PM   #1
Nymdok
 
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Default REALLY Difficult Locks

EDIT: Final Version Is Here

It was asked of me in another thread how Id price exceptionally fine locks in GURPS. I took the 3 points that we have values for (basic, normal and Fine) and interpolated and extrapolated those values. I figured Id post the numbers here and see which ones sounded most reasonable to ya'll.


The first column is the Difficulty modifier. Reg is the RAW cost multiplier for a lock of that difficulty.

Linear is the cost assuming two straight lines. One from Basic to Average and one from Average on up passing through Fine.

Qd is a Quadratic fit using .22(Modifier)^2 - 1.9(Modifier) +5 = Cost.

Exp uses an Exponential Fit according to the equation 4.6416*(e)^(-.29 * Modifier) = Cost. After Cost factor 10, these are rounded to the nearest 5.

Code:
+-   Reg  Line  Qd  Exp
10   n/a  n/a  n/a  .25
 9   n/a  n/a  n/a  .35
 8   n/a  n/a  n/a  .45
 7   n/a  n/a  n/a  .60
 6   n/a  n/a  n/a  .80
 5    1    1    1    1
 4   n/a   2    1    1.5
 3   n/a   3    1    2
 2   n/a   3    2    2.5
 1   n/a   4    3    3.5
 0    5    5    5    5 
-1   n/a   8    7    6
-2   n/a  11   10    8
-3   n/a  14   13    10
-4   n/a  17   16    15
-5    20  20   20    20
-6   n/a  23   24    25
-7   n/a  26   29    35
-8   n/a  29   34    45
-9   n/a  32   40    65
-10  n/a  35   46    85
-11  n/a  38   53   115
-12  n/a  41   59   150
-13  n/a  44   67   200
-14  n/a  47   75   270
-15  n/a  50   83   360
-16  n/a  53   92   480
-17  n/a  56  101   640
-18  n/a  59  110   860
-19  n/a  62  121   1145
-20  n/a  65  131   1535

Going by these numbers (Roughly)

Linear
10$ Gets You a weak lock at only +4 to Pick.
100$ Gets You a Weak lock at -5, Standard @ +0, or Tough/FS @ +5
1000$ Standard @ -15, Tough/FS @ -2
10K $: BS+4,
100K$ BS -5, BV +2,
1 million BV -9, Depository +2
10 million Depository -9
15 million Depository - 15

Quad
10$ : Weak +2
100$: Weak -5, Std 0, T/FS +5
1000$: STD -10, T/FS -2
10K $: T/FS -17, BS +2,
100K$: BS -5, BV +1
1 Mil $: BV -8, Dep +1
10 Mil$: Depository -8
30 Mil$: Depository -17

Exp
1$: Weak @ +10
10$: W +3, Std +8
100$: W -5, Std +0, T/FS +5
1000$: W -13, Std -8, T/FS -3
10k $: Std -16, T/FS -10, BS +3, BV +9
100K$: T/FS -18, BS -5, BV +1, Depository +9
1 Mil $: BS -13, BV -7, Depository +1
10 Mil$: BV -15, Depository -7
100 Mil$: Depository -15

So my questiona are:

Which one of these, if any, seems like the most reasonable progression?

High Tech lists -5 as Fine. WIth that In mind, Ill take -5 as commercially available to average consumers.
-5 : Fine - Highest Commercially avaiable to individual consumer. A wealthy persons Panic Room might qualify.
-10 : Custom Built or Very Fine. Highest available to corporate/Buisness. The lock to the server room at IBM or the lock that keeps the Coca-Cola Secret formula.
-15 : Governtment Installation, Evil Genius Lair etc. The kind of locks kept at Norad/Pentagon/White House that guard national secrets. Cold war launch codes could be hidden behind these locks.
-20: One of a kind, revolutionary or prototype design. Locks of these caliber are normally the thing of value in and of themselves.

These are presumably for more cinematic campaigns.

Nymdok

Last edited by Nymdok; 07-22-2010 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 07-20-2010, 08:55 AM   #2
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Don't we run into the problem that, rather than use really complicated locks, a lot of places use multiple, less complicated locks, usually synchronised and spaced so that no one person can open them?
Depending on your campaign the high end locks might be combination rather than pin and lever, or electronic/magical as well.

I seem to recall NORAD style places using pad cipher combination locks, but I may be wrong about that...
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:17 AM   #3
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
Don't we run into the problem that, rather than use really complicated locks, a lot of places use multiple, less complicated locks, usually synchronised and spaced so that no one person can open them?
Depending on your campaign the high end locks might be combination rather than pin and lever, or electronic/magical as well.

I seem to recall NORAD style places using pad cipher combination locks, but I may be wrong about that...
I dont know that its a problem. Needing another person to open something is another layer of vulnerability. What if the other person disagrees (The Launchcode Morality popular in 80s movies) to unlock or worse yet, waits till you unlock your valuables and then shoots you.

Im sure that for our current techlevel many of the more sophisticated locks are pad cipher, but this hasnt always been the case.

As to the question of multiple locks, it becomes a time issue at that point. If you locked your house with a dozen diary padlocks, AND someone was inclined to get in with out breakign the locks, it would just lengthen the process without increasing the difficulty of any individual lock.

Some differnt kinds of Locks.

Nymdok

Last edited by Nymdok; 07-20-2010 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
Which one of these, if any, seems like the most reasonable progression?
None of them. As a practical matter, a lock by itself is inferior to a lock with a sentient being standing there to ensure the lock doesn't get picked. The point of the lock is usually to make sure that the person trying to get past it doesn't have enough time to get in before the guards show up... because given enough time, any lock can be picked or bypassed.
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
just lengthen the process
Isn't that actually the point?

I always liked the fact that the US government approved safes are rated on how long they'll take to be opened. Not if, but when.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:25 AM   #6
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by rosignol View Post
....given enough time, any lock can be picked or bypassed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Isn't that actually the point?
Not originally, originally I was just noodling over cost, but it IS a good point and we can look at the times.

At -5 : Currently someone who spends 30 (Extra Time BS) hours can (40%) lockpick a safe at default (assuming average quality lockpicks). SKill 15 hits 50% in an hour.

At -10 : 30 hours still needs skill 15 for 50%., Skill 20 gets it (50%) in one hour.

At -15 : Skill 20 Gets it in 15 hours, SKill 25 gets it in an hour.

At -20 : Even Skill 25 needs time to work on it, but can get it in 30 hours. (Clearly an AMAZING lock!). I would assume that someone of skill 25 would also have a SWEET set of lockpicks (+2?) that could reduce the time to 8 hours for 50%, but its not manditory.

Of course, for smaller locks, use minutes instead of hours.

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Old 07-20-2010, 11:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
As to the question of multiple locks, it becomes a time issue at that point. If you locked your house with a dozen diary padlocks, AND someone was inclined to get in with out breakign the locks, it would just lengthen the process without increasing the difficulty of any individual lock.
That's really the point though, time.

You seem to be trying to abstract out the final difficulty in sneaking into a facility, having the right passcodes, the right badges along with the time required to being able to open certain items into one single number.

No lock can actually be made lock-proof, a biometric lock just requires a different type of input from a badge lock from a key lock from a combination lock, but a specialized expert can pick through them or bypass them, given enough time.
Not giving a thief that time is where active monitoring comes in and why secure facilities are secure.


On the other hand, you can't equate safecracking with opening a normal lock, safecracking is on a whole different level from normal lockpicking, if a lock goes past a certain point it stops being a lock and becomes a safe...
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
You seem to be trying to abstract out the final difficulty in sneaking into a facility, having the right passcodes, the right badges along with the time required to being able to open certain items into one single number.

No lock can actually be made lock-proof....

On the other hand, you can't equate safecracking with opening a normal lock...
No, Im only refering to a SINGLE lock and a mechanial one at that.

SOMEONE has to get past the lock sooner or later. WIth that in mind, you could think of a key as a custom made, single application lockpick.

Lockpicking is lockpicking, I dont think there is a familiarity or technique associated with it so I kinda have to. (I dont own action 2 so it could be in there)

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Old 07-20-2010, 12:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
On the other hand, you can't equate safecracking with opening a normal lock, safecracking is on a whole different level from normal lockpicking, if a lock goes past a certain point it stops being a lock and becomes a safe...
As movies like Ocean's 11 is focused around entering it, is probably not a good idea to resolve with one roll 8)
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: REALLY Difficult Locks

I'm not sure that the equipment quality rules are meant to be taken as open ended. Could one use the same system to get Lockpicks that give +15? Or armor that weighs .001% of normal for the same DR? There are practical limits to materials and technology. I think the Equipment quality rules already take that into account.

If you want a super advanced lock why not just use one of the next TL? A prototype Fine mechanical lock of TL+1 is -10 to pick for Lockpicking/TL and costs x40.
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