Beyond TL12 [Ultratech]

[AlexanderHowl]

In 3e, TL ranged from 0-16, but 4e reduced maximum TL to 12. The problem with that, at least from my perspective, is that it constrains the range of alien/future civilizations. I suggest the following additions to the TL scale in 4e for TLs that accomplish miracles without superscience:

TL 13: Electromagnetic mastery (allows for ^ electromagnetic manipulation)
TL 14: Gravitational mastery (allows for ^ gravitational manipulation)
TL 15: Nuclear force mastery (allows for ^ nuclear force manipulation)
TL 16: Time/Space mastery (allows for ^ time/space manipulation)

The exact technologies covered by each TL beyond 12 would depend on the setting and the GM and, if superscience exists, similar technologies could manifest in earlier TLs. If a technology manifests at an early TL due to superscience, its manifestation at the TL beyond 12 should be half the cost per TL difference (so TL14 gravity manipulation should be 1/16th the cost of TL10^ gravity manipulation).

What do you think? Would you use TLs beyond 12? If so, what would you add to the list and where?

[Anthony]

4e doesn't go beyond TL 12 because the ability to make useful predictions that far is essentially nonexistent. It doesn't mean you can't go beyond TL 12 in a campaign.

[Black Leviathan]

Use the Sorcery rules.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I suggest the following additions to the TL scale in 4e for TLs that accomplish miracles without superscience:

TL 13: Electromagnetic mastery (allows for ^ electromagnetic manipulation)
TL 14: Gravitational mastery (allows for ^ gravitational manipulation)
TL 15: Nuclear force mastery (allows for ^ nuclear force manipulation)
TL 16: Time/Space mastery (allows for ^ time/space manipulation)

The exact technologies covered by each TL beyond 12 would depend on the setting and the GM

These two points are contradictory. If the exact technologies differ by setting, then there is no point specifying those technologies generally. Not in every setting will mastery of the forces of gravity come before master of the nuclear forces. So why would you impose that as a general extension?

There's nothing stopping you from adding your own post-TL12 tech levels for your own setting. If your campaign has a clear technological advancement path, adding extra tech levels could be useful. But what GURPS presents is a framework that doesn't presume all these miraculous technologies have a set order.

And frankly, all the miraculous ultra-technology I can think of in fiction is based on superscience anyway. What beyond-TL12 technology can YOU think of that isn't based on superscience?

[AlexanderHowl]

What do you define as superscience? Is it unrealistic technologies at tech levels we can imagine or unknown technology at tech levels we cannot conceive? If the progress of technology goes beyond our conception, we cannot accurately say what is realistic or not, no more than a TL3 individual could accurately predict the course of technology by TL8.

[ericthered]

When I go above nominal TL12 its usually because I'm working with a setting very opinionated about its technology (which to be clear is a good thing) and who feature a faction or whatever that is more advanced than the baseline culture. The TL is above 12 in that the numeric progressions go that high: the new technologies such factions have access to rarely line up with their Gurps TL.

Usually, the higher TL folk have a smaller difference in relative technology levels than a gurps TL (especially a UT tech level), but its important for the feel of the setting to distinguish. I'm probably more likely to play at a nominal TL13 in gurps than to play radical hard TL12

If you pushed me to expand the gurps TL system, after splitting TL 12^ (not sure if TL12 without superscience needs splitting) once I'd look at splitting TL9, which jumps from no-cybernetics to full cybernetics, and no-AI to full AI very quickly.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

What do you define as superscience?

"'Superscience' technologies violate physical laws – relativity, conservation of energy, etc. – as we currently understand them." (GURPS Basic Set, page 513.)

Is it unrealistic technologies at tech levels we can imagine or unknown technology at tech levels we cannot conceive?

We can conceive of "electromagnetic mastery," "gravitational mastery," "nuclear force mastery," and "time/space mastery." The very fact that you defined these technologies means you can conceive of them. If you can't conceive of it, you can't very well write it up in game terms.

The definition of superscience isn't just "unrealistic"; it's technology that is impossible according to the laws of nature as we currently believe them to be.

If the progress of technology goes beyond our conception, we cannot accurately say what is realistic or not, no more than a TL3 individual could accurately predict the course of technology by TL8.

But the TL system is specifically designed around our current, real-world understanding of what is physically possible and what is not — not what a medieval person thought. That's what the "currently" is doing in the definition of superscience.

[Varyon]

A lot of GURPS technology has progressive improvements as TL goes up, and if you allow for TL over 12 it would make sense for the progression to continue (although in some cases the resulting gear may be highly unrealistic). Computer complexity continues to go up, armor continues to get lighter (or, rather, gives more DR for the same weight), energy storage/production continues to improve, and so forth. The problem becomes that you basically have to rely on superscience to define what new technologies come about at each additional TL, but the nature of superscience is that it can be discovered at nearly any TL (because it must rely on fundamental aspects of reality that could themselves be discovered; this doesn't mean they will be discovered anytime soon, of course).

Also, as TL goes up, it becomes harder and harder to conceive of and build a believable setting, and going over 12 is going to make this even harder. As the TL of some extinct (or "ascended") precursor race, it probably works fine, as it's limited to artifacts and whatever humans (or whatever other species are bouncing around) have managed to reverse-engineer, but I don't think I'd want to run or play in, say, a TL 14 game.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

What do you define as superscience?

Superscience is things that we have some reason to think are actually impossible. Note that we might be wrong.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Is it unrealistic technologies at tech levels we can imagine or unknown technology at tech levels we cannot conceive?

Hence the reason GURPS TLs don't go beyond 12. It's not that more advanced capabilities might not exist, it's that we don't have a sufficient understanding to engage in even modestly informed speculation, so detailing more advanced tech serves no purpose.