Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-02-2015, 10:56 AM   #11
sonic232
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
However, Wildcard skills are very broad. If I want two (A) skills at DX+5, that could cost me 40 points? (IDHMBWM) There's no Wildcard skill that's going to cover two melee skills, for melee use and melee use only. Under my proposal, it would cost 25 points, which I think is fairer. The downside is that you'll have to take a second to adjust when you pick up a new weapon, but I can live with that.
That's what Buying Skills at Default allows. Buy one skill up to a decent level for, say, 16 points. Then pay only 4 points for other skills that can default off of it at a starting level of their default off that skill + 1 (In a lot of cases, this will end up being Base Skill - 1 or Base Skill - 3).

Let's use Broadsword and Shortsword as an example. Both are DX/A skills, so they start at DX - 1 and default to each other at Skill - 2. So let's build Broadsword up to DX + 3 for 12 points. This makes your Shortsword DEFAULT DX + 1. For 4 points (the difference between DX + 1 and DX + 2 for an Average skill), you just bought yourself Shortsword at DX + 2.
sonic232 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 11:14 AM   #12
Kuroshima
MIB
Pyramid Contributor
Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer
 
Kuroshima's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
Default Re: Alternative Skills

I don't like the buying skills from default, as it rarely makes sense to use them. That's a big fail in the rules. The reason? once skills are high enough, you need 4 points to raise a skill from default. For those same 4 points, you could have raised the main skill by one point, and also raised the defaulted skill by one point. I do have a house rule here: for a perk (of the appropriate kind), I'll let you raise the defaulted skill as a hard technique. Once it's raised, to max skill, you're assumed to have "merged" the bodies of knowledge, and now you can get defaults from both skills covered by the default.
__________________
Antoni Ten
MIB3119
My GURPs character sheet
My stuff on e23
Kuroshima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 12:08 PM   #13
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
I don't like the buying skills from default, as it rarely makes sense to use them. That's a big fail in the rules. The reason? once skills are high enough, you need 4 points to raise a skill from default. For those same 4 points, you could have raised the main skill by one point, and also raised the defaulted skill by one point. I do have a house rule here: for a perk (of the appropriate kind), I'll let you raise the defaulted skill as a hard technique. Once it's raised, to max skill, you're assumed to have "merged" the bodies of knowledge, and now you can get defaults from both skills covered by the default.
Hmmm. I like it.
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 01:23 PM   #14
sonic232
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
I don't like the buying skills from default, as it rarely makes sense to use them. That's a big fail in the rules. The reason? once skills are high enough, you need 4 points to raise a skill from default. For those same 4 points, you could have raised the main skill by one point, and also raised the defaulted skill by one point. I do have a house rule here: for a perk (of the appropriate kind), I'll let you raise the defaulted skill as a hard technique. Once it's raised, to max skill, you're assumed to have "merged" the bodies of knowledge, and now you can get defaults from both skills covered by the default.
...This makes way too much sense considering the reason why Techniques exist. Bravo, sir. Bravo.
sonic232 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 01:37 PM   #15
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
Once it's raised, to max skill, you're assumed to have "merged" the bodies of knowledge, and now you can get defaults from both skills covered by the default.
There's a RAW way of doing it that is cheaper than that. You have skill A (DX/A) at, say, 16 points for DX+4. Skill B defaults to A-4, so you have it as a default at DX. If you spend just one point on B, which isn't enough to raise the skill to DX+1, you still "know the skill", and can claim defaults from it. This Kromm quote and the surrounding thread explains some more.
johndallman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2015, 07:14 PM   #16
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic232 View Post
That's what Buying Skills at Default allows. Buy one skill up to a decent level for, say, 16 points. Then pay only 4 points for other skills that can default off of it at a starting level of their default off that skill + 1 (In a lot of cases, this will end up being Base Skill - 1 or Base Skill - 3).

Let's use Broadsword and Shortsword as an example. Both are DX/A skills, so they start at DX - 1 and default to each other at Skill - 2. So let's build Broadsword up to DX + 3 for 12 points. This makes your Shortsword DEFAULT DX + 1. For 4 points (the difference between DX + 1 and DX + 2 for an Average skill), you just bought yourself Shortsword at DX + 2.
And if I want Broadsword and Axe/Mace? There's no default.
__________________
“When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 09:47 AM   #17
weby
 
weby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
And if I want Broadsword and Axe/Mace? There's no default.
I have always found the melee weapon skills and defaults to be "strange".

You learn to fight with a 1lb baton and suddenly you are an expert stabber and in hitting with the edge with 2lb shortsword(same skill) after few hours of familiarization, but cannot hit anything with a 1lb large knife(-3).

You learn to hit with a Small Mace where the orientation of the weapon does not matter and suddenly you can keep the blade oriented just fine on an axe after few hours of familiarization, but cannot learn the slightly different balance of a club at all.

As a trained cavalry man with high lance skill you hold you lance in one hand and brace it under the arm or similar and charge.. then your lance breaks and you draw a straight thrusting sword and hold it in one hand and suddenly you are at DX-5 to hit and you cavalry training does not help. That lack of bracing sure hurts a lot..

And the funniest of them all you learn to fight with a large axe and then pick up a Chainsaw and after a few hours you are the best chainsaw killer ever... but in you try to use an axe one handed you miss a lot(-3)..

And so on...
__________________
--
GURPS spaceship unofficial errata and thoughts: https://gsuc.roto.nu/
weby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 10:06 AM   #18
Edges
 
Edges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GMT-5
Default Re: Alternative Skills

I'd just allow an "All Melee Weapons" talent for 10/level and be done with it. It's less of a point crock than Magery. It's cheaper than DX! as it should be. And it's comparable in price to raising a wildcard skill minus the limited, built-in destiny point.
Edges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 12:30 PM   #19
evileeyore
Banned
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
And if I want Broadsword and Axe/Mace? There's no default.
I also default all weapons within a Reach category at -5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
You learn to fight with a 1lb baton and suddenly you are an expert stabber and in hitting with the edge with 2lb shortsword(same skill) after few hours of familiarization, but cannot hit anything with a 1lb large knife(-3).
Have you ever actually fought with those weapons?

Batons can 'stab', in particular thrusts to the throat and face are taught at the dojo I attended. Solar plexus and kidneys (if from behind) were also highlighted in the teaching.

Quote:
You learn to hit with a Small Mace where the orientation of the weapon does not matter and suddenly you can keep the blade oriented just fine on an axe after few hours of familiarization, but cannot learn the slightly different balance of a club at all.
Yeah... that ones dodgy. I haven't bothered to make it easier to go from Axe/Mace to Club, but it should be.

I'll have add Clubs to the Axe/Mace (and staffs to the Two-handed Axe/Mace) category in my home chart now that you've mentioned it. :)

And Staves on the Polearm list too.

Quote:
As a trained cavalry man with high lance skill you hold you lance in one hand and brace it under the arm or similar and charge.. then your lance breaks and you draw a straight thrusting sword and hold it in one hand and suddenly you are at DX-5 to hit and you cavalry training does not help. That lack of bracing sure hurts a lot..
You really don't want to stab with your sword whilst running someone down, you'll lose your sword at best, get unseated at worst. And there is a very big difference between running someone down with a a couched Lance and swinging on someone with a sword.

Quote:
...and you cavalry training does not help...
Proper cav training should have one at least Dabbling in Broadsword, if not with a full point if they've got points in Lance and Riding.

Quote:
And the funniest of them all you learn to fight with a large axe and then pick up a Chainsaw and after a few hours you are the best chainsaw killer ever... but in you try to use an axe one handed you miss a lot(-3)..
That one I have addressed: Chainsaws are their own skill, if you want to do really stupid things like use them in melee (unless it's an ACTION! game where such things are genre conventions, then I don't care and tend to default all weapons to Brawling if I really don't care (ala a quick vignette game with premades)).
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2015, 02:47 PM   #20
weby
 
weby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default Re: Alternative Skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post

Have you ever actually fought with those weapons?

Batons can 'stab', in particular thrusts to the throat and face are taught at the dojo I attended. Solar plexus and kidneys (if from behind) were also highlighted in the teaching.
Fought with them, no, handled such and trained in defending against them both armed an unarmed: yes.

My armed training is with heavier weapons. I have mostly used what Gurps calls thrusting bastard swords and we just called "one and half handers", though some playing around with various other weapons.

It is the martial artists that train in stabbing with the baton others do predominantly swings unless they have originally trained with some other weapon.

Most people I have seen with batons and the like would likely not:
-Hit with the edge always with the swing the of the short sword instead if a baton.
-Be equally good at stabbing than someone who has actually trained with a "stab primary" weapon.

But they would likely be as good at stabbing with the baton and the large knife.

I did not see any difference in wielders skill between a knife and a baton that switched between them. Maybe they have all bought off the penalty though...

Quote:
You really don't want to stab with your sword whilst running someone down, you'll lose your sword at best, get unseated at worst. And there is a very big difference between running someone down with a a couched Lance and swinging on someone with a sword.
And yet that is a cavalry tactic that has been in actual use at some places and times... and there was apparently a lot of "this is better" "no that is better" back then.. so flame wars are nothing new.. :)

And an overall comment: I do find -3/-4 to be too high penalty between a lot of the weapons. Specially at lower skill levels.

A light rapier to an early small sword should not be a -3 transition as it is about the same as rapier to light rapier, the later dress small swords are then again smaller..

A roman Gladius is counted as a shortsword despite some examples being 85cm long and and some arming swords are shorter, but are pointed broadswords..

In general I would lower the penalties a lot after some familiarization.

As example the historical transition of 1 Rapier->2 shorter rapier(light rapier)->3 small sword->4 smaller smallsword(dress longsword). Gurps draws a big line between transition steps 2 and 3, but treats the two other transitions as only requiring few hours of familiarization compared to the 4*3*200=2400 hours of training for step 2 to 3.

A more proper way would be to either threat all of it as familiarization or make all steps be say -1 similarity and a lot more steps in the transition charts.

Note that there are other cases than the ones I listed:
Like someone who is somewhat trained in say a broadsword and has a skill at DX+2 grabs a smallsword would not be at DX-5 for thrusts after couple of hours of learning the balance.
__________________
--
GURPS spaceship unofficial errata and thoughts: https://gsuc.roto.nu/
weby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alternative abilities, skills

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.