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Old 04-01-2020, 06:20 AM   #11
Kromm
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Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

On the side matter of the amount of DR needed at ultra-tech TLs: Just make Hardened a more common feature on rigid – not flexible – armor (it's already standard for warsuits and force screens). It's implausible that the real-world efforts to defeat armor-piercing projectiles would suddenly end at TLs where these projectiles are such a viable option for small arms that everybody uses them.

This is a "design switch" I always flip on when gaming at TL9+. I like one free level of Hardened per TL past 8: Hardened 1 at TL9, so (10) becomes (5), and (2) goes away; Hardened 2 at TL10, so (10) becomes (3), and (2) and (3) go away; Hardened 3 at TL11, so (10) becomes (2), and (2), (3), and (5) go away; and Hardened 4 at TL12, so (2), (3), (5), and (10) go away.

This makes the huge weight of rigid armor worth carrying. It also means there's some rationale for developing energy weapons with every-increasing armor divisors, like X-ray and gamma-ray lasers, and disintegrators.
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Old 04-01-2020, 06:31 AM   #12
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Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

A TL9 ETC Magnum Pistol with APEP rounds will do 6d+1 (3) pi+ damage, which requires an average DR 66 to stop. A TL9 Tactical Vest with Trauma Plates has an effective torso DR 17 against the attack, meaning that any successful attack would deal 7 HP damage to the torso (a major wound for most characters). Unarmored characters would take 33 HP of damage.

A TL9 ETC Anti-Material Rifle with APEP rounds will do 22d+1 (3) pi damage, which requires an average DR 234 to stop. A TL9 Combat Walker possesses an effective torso DR 67 against the attack, meaning that any successful attack would deal 11 HP damage to the torso (a major wound for most characters). Unarmored characters would take 78 HP of damage.

In either case, DR does not stop the primary threat, it just makes it survivable, just like with any setting. At TL3, heavy plate armor gives DR 7, but a ST 14 person with a great axe deals 2d+4 cutting damage, meaning that the target will suffer an average of 6 HP damage from each attack. Unarmored characters would take an average for 16 HP of damage.

Free Hardened for rigid DR is not a bad lens for UT armor. With that lens, trauma plates stop ETC Magnum Pistols with APEP rounds while combat walkers stop ETC Anti-Material Rifles with APEP rounds. It is also good for dealing with supers.

Last edited by AlexanderHowl; 04-01-2020 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 04-01-2020, 07:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
12 pounds weight, it's ablative so after the first hit from a laser rifle it's not protecting much against future laser rifle hits. Adding an assault vest (I assume you mean the Tactical Vest + plates on UT173) means another 18 pounds, and -1 DX for layering. Presumably there's a decent met in there as well, for another 5 pounds or so. Decent protection, for sure, and all at LC2, just like the Laser Rifle.

This, on the other hand, is LC1, and has a terrible effective range unless the user is very skilled.
You can tailor armor in UT to exclude the torso area so that you do not get penalties for wearing Tactical Vest. If you dont keep groin protection, it's Pants + Sleeves and collar. If you keep groin protector, it's Sleeves + Chaps.

Regarding LC, usually when you're being shot by laser rifles while wearing anti-laser protection, LC is not a concern - you're fighting military-style.

Regarding range, 10mm pistol is bare minimum, feel free to use Storm Rifle instead, or any other firearm, most of which have comparable or better range than Laser.

Regardless, it's a bit off-topic. If the only issue is UT, giving out free hardened, removing the overpowered options and such should solve the problem better than making DR trait very cheap.

During earlier TLs, making it cheaper just breaks the combat to the state of UT, where you need increasingly stupid weapons to target one guy, as he can get lots of DR on the cheap, or get just enough DR (like 12 for example) and be both competent AND invulnerable to most non-military threats.
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Old 04-01-2020, 07:31 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
In something I'm working on I called it out as the best DR you can get in the setting allows you to purchase that DR at 1/5 cost. So if you could get DR 50 via clamshell armor then purchasing DR 50 would cost only 50 points.
This looks very good. My setting has TL 10 battlesuits, so DR 150 would be the cut-off.
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Old 04-01-2020, 11:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
You can tailor armor in UT to exclude the torso area so that you do not get penalties for wearing Tactical Vest. If you dont keep groin protection, it's Pants + Sleeves and collar. If you keep groin protector, it's Sleeves + Chaps.
You said "jump suit" in your previous post, so that's what I replied to.

Quote:
Regarding LC, usually when you're being shot by laser rifles while wearing anti-laser protection, LC is not a concern - you're fighting military-style.
LC2 is para-military, LC1 is full-on military. They are different, and it's unsurprising that an LC1 warhead is better at defeating body armour than an LC2 small arm.

By denying that LC matters, while carefully optimising armour sets to defeat a specific threat (badly, I might add), I feel that you're cheery-picking the rules you choose to observe.
Quote:
Regarding range, 10mm pistol is bare minimum, feel free to use Storm Rifle instead, or any other firearm, most of which have comparable or better range than Laser.
It's not the absolute range of the weapon that matters, it's the Acc, because determines how far most users will be able to hit anything, and an Acc12 laser rifle gets about fifty times to useful range of an Acc2 pistol.
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Old 04-01-2020, 11:51 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
One problem I have with Damage Resistance is that the value of DR shifts with Tech Level. DR 5 is worth a lot at TL 3 but pretty useless at TL 10. I've toyed with two different ways to mimic this.
?
The value of DR shifts with the introduction of armour piercing attacks. IF you are wearing TL 8 body armour, then innate DR 5 added underneath that is just as valuable versus modern weapons.
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Old 04-01-2020, 11:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

DR 5 at TL 3 will turn a good hit with an arrow or bolt (6-7 damage) from a felling blow to a serious, but survivable injury.

DR 5 at TL 8 will turn a good hit with a rifle (the equivalent of an arrow) from a felling blow (20 points) to... another felling blow (15 points).

That's what I mean.

Edit: But I've decided to use Christopher's solution, so I don't really care about what becomes of the thread. My question is answered
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Old 04-01-2020, 03:20 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
One problem I have with Damage Resistance is that the value of DR shifts with Tech Level. DR 5 is worth a lot at TL 3 but pretty useless at TL 10.
But the value of lots of advantages shift with tech level. Absolute timing is valuable at TL 3, but I own a $20 wristwatch here in TL8. In an illiterate society, the ability to read and write might almost as well be telepathy. And what about just buying a radio? To accomplish what you can accomplish with a set of walkie-talkies, the TL3 PC would have to have telepathy, which would not even be available in any realistic campaign. (And anything but one level of tough skin is arguably unrealistic, anyway.) I think the Basic Set does a pretty great job of establishing basic values for things (Power-Ups 9 notwithstanding). And as somebody has already basically pointed out, a punch in the face is always going to be a punch in the face.... I could buy a body suit today that would basically prevent me from being injured by a punch in the face, but am I wearing it? Could I wear it out to a bar? DR - if your GM lets you buy it - seems cheap to me at any TL.
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Old 04-01-2020, 04:14 PM   #19
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Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

I think the easiest way to handle a lot of these problems is treat innate abilities that function similarly to gear as a a combination of signature gear and payload sufficient for the effect you want (the fact that you aren't getting general purpose payload is negated by the fact that you can use it normally when it's stored).
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Old 04-01-2020, 10:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: Damage Resistance and Tech Level

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders View Post
One problem I have with Damage Resistance is that the value of DR shifts with Tech Level. DR 5 is worth a lot at TL 3 but pretty useless at TL 10. I've toyed with two different ways to mimic this.

One is to make the cost of DR variable - something like 10-TL (TL 10 would cost 1/2, TL 11 would cost 1/4 and TL 12 would cost 1/8).

The other is to set the cost at 10 and make up a limitation: -10% per Tech Level.

I began with the first one but now I like the second one better. Hmm... thoughts?
ST is twice the price of DR.

Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes has a TL based pricing for ST:

TL: Cost per level
0-4: 10
5: 9
6: 8
7: 7
8: 6
9: 5
10: 4
11: 3
12: 2

So For DR that might be:
TL: Cost per level
0-4: 5
5: 4.5 (9 for two levels)
6: 4
7: 3.5 (7 for two levels)
8: 3
9: 2.5 (5 for two levels)
10: 2
11: 1.5 (3 for two levels)
12: 1
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