Changing damage progression and price of ST

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Anders

But yeah, ST should be worth less in this scenario, which is why I want to know if 6 points/level is reasonable.

Depends if you prefer armored characters to be killed by being stabbed in the eye or by being hit by powerful attacks. The more expensive it is to raise damage, the more your game favors the first.

[Anders]

Good point. I'll probably have to adjust the skill penalty for hitting the eye. -9 is too generous - probably should be something like -14 in a guy who's moving his head around.

But I'll be looking at 100-150 point characters who don't spend all their points on one weapon skill. And probably no Weapon Master, now that I think about it. Towards the more realistic end of the spectrum as opposed to Dungeon Fantasy.

[Anthony]

The basic problem you have is that, in a point based system, you either don't bother with being able to fight at all, or you invest enough that you'll win fights. That means the ability to penetrate or bypass armor.

[nudj]

Originally Posted by Anders

So my problem with KYOS is that it keeps the "armour is useless" thing. If you do 3d damage with a sword and the average person has mail armor (DR 5)... it's not very useful. People don't reliably penetrate mail armor with swords.
.

KYOS nerfs swing damage. 2d+2 is the highest base swing damage for a human. Any real human from the Middle Ages would have significantly less strength than that. I doubt there is anyone above Strength 13, which is 2d-1 swing.

I think you are mixing up “realistic medieval setting where armor matters” with “D&D levels of heroic strength”.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anders

Good point. I'll probably have to adjust the skill penalty for hitting the eye. -9 is too generous - probably should be something like -14 in a guy who's moving his head around.

But I'll be looking at 100-150 point characters who don't spend all their points on one weapon skill. And probably no Weapon Master, now that I think about it. Towards the more realistic end of the spectrum as opposed to Dungeon Fantasy.

If you're restructuring things so decent armor makes a character largely proof against hand weapons, you'll probably want armor that fully covers the body to be fairly rare, so that combatants tend to attack where the armor isn't - or at least where the armor is particularly thin - without having to rely on stabbing a foe in the eye. This results in armor largely functioning to give foes a to-hit penalty. Striking Strength is, of course, still of some use in such a setting - lighter armor can potentially be penetrated, you cause more severe Injuries when you strike unarmored locations, and you can wield heavy weapons that can have an effect through armor (hit someone in the head with a heavy mace, even if their helmet tanks the entire hit they should still end up disoriented or even outright wounded from their head getting violently moved around).

[Sorenant]

I like KYOS. It improves the Thrust and Basic Lift progression and sets a ceiling (soft and hard) for realistic characters. It makes Spears more attractive, the reduced maximum damage makes armor very valuable in realistic setting, and the improved Basic Lift allows donning heavier armor in cinematic games that requires it. The way I see, its only downside is the need to tweak most cinematic templates and some racial ones (like Dwarves).

Originally Posted by Anthony

If ST doesn't help you deal with armor, what good is it?

It's useful to defeat armor but not the only mean, as when it comes to swords vs armor finesse seems to be right answer. On the other hand, finesse is likely not going to be of much help against natural DR of golems and similar fantastic creatures.
It's also crucial to carry gear (including armor) without becoming seriously encumbered and grants more HP.

Originally Posted by Anders

Good point. I'll probably have to adjust the skill penalty for hitting the eye. -9 is too generous

Is it? It's close to an impossible task if you compare it to the Task Difficulty modifiers and that's before accounting for the target's active defenses and facial armor.
It's not something warriors of ordinary/realistic skill levels (14±2) can do without proper set up, just like in real life, but within reach for cinematic swashbucklers.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by nudj

KYOS nerfs swing damage. 2d+2 is the highest base swing damage for a human. Any real human from the Middle Ages would have significantly less strength than that. I doubt there is anyone above Strength 13, which is 2d-1 swing.

I think you are mixing up “realistic medieval setting where armor matters” with “D&D levels of heroic strength”.

I'd second this. ST 16 = regular ST 20, and should be a soft cap on how high humans should take. That's Thr 2d with another +2 from swing.

In terms of armor, a high BL for a given ST also allows for either a bit more gear or a lower enc. Beware of Dwarfs with a good Lifting ST under KYOS. They are tough wrestlers that can run around in heavy armor.

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by naloth

Beware of Dwarfs with a good Lifting ST under KYOS. They are tough wrestlers that can run around in heavy armor.

Orc: Hahaha, what are you going to do? Bite my shins?
*proceeds to get his ass handed by a dwarf trained in unarmed battlecraft*

[Anders]

All this is very interesting, but how do you think it should affect the price? I have decided to do it, it worked well in the game Doug was in and if it doesn't work I can always change it.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Orc: Hahaha, what are you going to do? Bite my shins?
*proceeds to get his ass handed by a dwarf trained in unarmed battlecraft*

My original 3rd -> 4e Dwarf template had Lifting ST+5 for the bargain price of 3/lvl. On top of a ST13, that allowed him to wear pretty good armor at "No Enc" and sumo grapple with an effective ST20.

G:Fantasy gave Dwarfs a Lifting ST+2. Matched with a KYOS ST14 that's a pretty impressive BL80 (like a current ST20).

Originally Posted by Anders

All this is very interesting, but how do you think it should affect the price? I have decided to do it, it worked well in the game Doug was in and if it doesn't work I can always change it.

I use either regular price with KYOS <or> in the past I've used ST 5/lvl with the regular thrust / BL progression. I suspect the latter would still be fair if you're just adjusting sw.