Changing damage progression and price of ST

[Anders]

I thought I would try out making swing damage less all-overshadowing. Changing it so that sw = thr+2. At normal ST this makes thrust a viable alternative to swinging. AT TL 0-4, how should that change the price of ST? I've looked at PU:9 and couldn't find anything about how changing basic damage changes the value of ST.

I'm thinking reducing Striking ST to 1 or 2 points per level - it's arguably overpriced anyway compared to Innate Attack. That makes ST cost 6 or 7, which seems reasonable.

What does the Hive Mind think?

[tbone]

This may be a little beyond what you're looking to do, but I think the ideal change would be to just do away with swing dam as a thing inherent to ST, and instead make the thr-vs-sw damage difference inherent to the weapon in question. As spelled out here:
https://www.gamesdiner.com/2022/01/g...-swing-damage/

But whether taking that approach or the approach you describe (keep thr and sw dam stats as inherent to ST, but tone down the difference), I think it's a worthwhile thing to experiment with. I like that GURPS differentiates between thrusts and swings, but I'm not a big fan of the way the dam difference grows so high, all the way to a diff of about 2d+2 IIRC, before coming back down to a difference of 2d for some reason.

I haven't tackled repricing ST, though. As you say, it ropes in the question of whether Striking ST is too expensive to begin with, even before toning down sw dam. Let's hear from the Hive Mind...

[Anders]

Douglas Cole had apparently played in a campaign where they had sw=thr+2, and it worked very well. That's what roped me in.

[naloth]

Essentially sw=thr+2 is part of KYOS, which I've used quite a bit since it came out. Of course, it also gives a +1 damage / ST and reprices both Striking and Lifting ST. For my games I've been using Striking ST 2/lvl and Lifting ST 6/lvl. I haven't had to impose limits at TL8+ (or in Supers), but I'd probably cap it at like DR in other settings.

[tbone]

Might want to reprice Weapon Master too, as it'd no longer reap big damage adds from high swing damage dice.

[lugaid]

Another, similar, progression that you might consider is this one from Old School Grognard, which is similar but gives a damage benefit to every level of ST instead of every other one. It's supported on GCS, too, in the Settings. The post suggests (buried down the page, which is why I'm noting it here) adjusting costs of Striking ST to [3] and ST to [8].

Originally Posted by naloth

it also gives a +1 damage / ST

Wouldn't that be thr = sw - 2?

[Anthony]

The problem with Swing=Thrust+2 is it means half of the possible values of striking ST don't do anything at all for you. You can invert it (Thrust=Swing-2), in which case the value of ST doesn't go down at all and might go up.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by naloth

Essentially sw=thr+2 is part of KYOS, which I've used quite a bit since it came out. Of course, it also gives a +1 damage / ST and reprices both Striking and Lifting ST. For my games I've been using Striking ST 2/lvl and Lifting ST 6/lvl. I haven't had to impose limits at TL8+ (or in Supers), but I'd probably cap it at like DR in other settings.

So my problem with KYOS is that it keeps the "armour is useless" thing. If you do 3d damage with a sword and the average person has mail armor (DR 5)... it's not very useful. People don't reliably penetrate mail armor with swords.

Originally Posted by tbone

Might want to reprice Weapon Master too, as it'd no longer reap big damage adds from high swing damage dice.

Yeah, I'm thinking of replacing it with a flat +2/+4. Christopher Rice has tried this and it works out well.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Anders

So my problem with KYOS is that it keeps the "armour is useless" thing. If you do 3d damage with a sword and the average person has mail armor (DR 5)... it's not very useful. People don't reliably penetrate mail armor with swords.

If ST doesn't help you deal with armor, what good is it?

[nudj]

Originally Posted by Anders

So my problem with KYOS is that it keeps the "armour is useless" thing. If you do 3d damage with a sword and the average person has mail armor (DR 5)... it's not very useful. People don't reliably penetrate mail armor with swords.
.

KYOS nerfs swing damage. 2d+2 is the highest base swing damage for a human. Any real human from the Middle Ages would have significantly less strength than that. I doubt there is anyone above Strength 13, which is 2d-1 swing.

I think you are mixing up “realistic medieval setting where armor matters” with “D&D levels of heroic strength”.