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Old 09-07-2020, 08:29 PM   #41
Shostak
 
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
Tiers... Novice, Veteran and Legend. They're more broad than the current IQ-based structure since they use the character's total attribute value. It reinforces the 'heroic journey' aspect of RPGs that my players and I prefer.

P.S. TFT already has 'levels'. They're just represented more abstractly in the form of ST, DX and IQ.
To get this back on topic, I think the tier structure suggested by TippetsTX does exactly what I was hoping to achieve, and it works for both talents and spells. I wish had paid more attention to it when it was first suggested. I might prefer more neutral tier titles, like Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced.
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Old 09-07-2020, 09:21 PM   #42
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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To get this back on topic, I think the tier structure suggested by TippetsTX does exactly what I was hoping to achieve, and it works for both talents and spells. I wish had paid more attention to it when it was first suggested. I might prefer more neutral tier titles, like Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced.
Thanks Anthony, but fair warning to you and everyone else, my 'tier' construct is a core element in the comprehensive ruleset changes that I have been working on since early last year. There's more to it than simply a new way to align and organize talents and spells. Some may not have an appetite for the level of change I'm suggesting... and that's OK.
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Old 09-08-2020, 05:48 AM   #43
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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To get this back on topic, I think the tier structure suggested by TippetsTX does exactly what I was hoping to achieve
In my eyes a big advantage of TFT (for instance) over D&D (for instance) is that in D&D progress is a ladder with only one way up but in TFT it's a cliff face with multiple routes to the top. Another way of looking at this is that in D&D you have a small menu and buy all or much of it, in TFT you have a large menu and choose a few dishes you prefer. Or that in D&D the game designer chooses your character's progression and in TFT the player does.

Adding tiers makes the game more like D&D: your menu gets smaller and you order more of it; the game designer closes off more options. I dislike doing this. Before I included it in my preferred TFT rules I would need a really good reason for doing it, and I've never been convinced there is one.

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I might prefer more neutral tier titles, like Basic, Intermediate, and Advanced.
Or indeed, One, Two, Three.
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Old 09-08-2020, 08:47 AM   #44
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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Adding tiers makes the game more like D&D: your menu gets smaller and you order more of it; the game designer closes off more options.
As it sits, there are 13 tiers (IQ 8-20) that are used to limit access to talents and spells. Having only 3 opens options for character builds rather than limiting them.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:05 AM   #45
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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As it sits, there are 13 tiers (IQ 8-20) that are used to limit access to talents and spells. Having only 3 opens options for character builds rather than limiting them.
This is my stance as well, though I can certainly understand David's concerns. My system does put certain abilities out-of-reach for starting characters (specifically those who opt to maximize IQ in order to gain access to more powerful talents or spells) while at the same time providing more open access to others. It's a trade-off I can accept and one that feels in keeping with TFT's philosophy.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:13 AM   #46
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

The least disruptive way to split off the advanced talents is to mark them as XP only abilities that can't be bought with "free" starting memory points.

The result is that the characters created for your campaigns can be freely used in other adventures as there are no "special bits" hanging off the sides of them.

My suggested list is: Fencer, Missile Weapons, Expert or Master anything, Two Weapons, UC-III, and Staff-II.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:24 AM   #47
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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As it sits, there are 13 tiers (IQ 8-20) that are used to limit access to talents and spells. Having only 3 opens options for character builds rather than limiting them.
The number of tiers isn't what matters, it's whether they are under player control. A player can choose whether their character emphasises IQ or other attributes. Can a player decide which tier their character will be in? Or does that get determined by the game designer for a given level of experience?
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:35 AM   #48
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

[QUOTE=hcobb;2342637]The least disruptive way to split off the advanced talents is to mark them as XP only abilities that can't be bought with "free" starting memory points.[QUOTE]

Least disruptive? Given the extremely high cost of talents (1000 XP+) it's not far off abolishing these talents. In all the games we've had on server no one has, to my knowledge, come within cooee of being willing to spend 1000 to 1500 XPs on a talent.

While many people hate the advanced combat talents it would be a shame to scrap them, since they open up a wider variety of character types. Maybe there're a bit better than they should be but they don't deserve execution.

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The result is that the characters created for your campaigns can be freely used in other adventures as there are no "special bits" hanging off the sides of them.
I'm not sure I understand this. But in any case I think it's a bit weird taking characters between campaigns, for me it compromises suspension of disbelief.

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My suggested list is: Fencer, Missile Weapons, Expert or Master anything, Two Weapons, UC-III, and Staff-II.
Archers would be badly degraded, relative to Classic. And wizards would probably be better off, since this probably hurts heroes worse than wizards. Wizards don't need the help.
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Old 09-08-2020, 10:53 AM   #49
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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The number of tiers isn't what matters, it's whether they are under player control. A player can choose whether their character emphasises IQ or other attributes. Can a player decide which tier their character will be in? Or does that get determined by the game designer for a given level of experience?
The character's 'tier' is a direct result of their attribute total which is core to player choice. But you are right that it absolutely makes certain advanced abilities dependant on a more holistic view of the character's experience.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 09-08-2020 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 09-09-2020, 04:00 AM   #50
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The least disruptive way to split off the advanced talents is to mark them as XP only abilities that can't be bought with "free" starting memory points.

The result is that the characters created for your campaigns can be freely used in other adventures as there are no "special bits" hanging off the sides of them.

My suggested list is: Fencer, Missile Weapons, Expert or Master anything, Two Weapons, UC-III, and Staff-II.
I kinda think this is right on the nail. Except maybe for keeping Staff-II (the mana capacity still has to be earned through XP, so it's less of a runaway train). One could do it this way, but temper the XP costs for later talents if they felt it was too draconian. It would still be less disruptive than anything else.

This feels so much like history repeating itself. I'm recalling how, when Advanced Wizard came along, my group voted to exclude most of the "new" spells from PCs because we agreed they'd overly unbalance how we'd already been playing for 4 or 5 years. The issue has shifted from advanced spells then to advanced talents now.
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Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 09-09-2020 at 04:03 AM.
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