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Old 07-13-2021, 02:52 PM   #21
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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A gang just needs bunch of peds with Stinger SAMs. 4-5 will end most choppers from just the D hazards - should be minus 12 HC from taking the hits. Best part is the chopper will probably be salvageable
[snort] Anyone delivering bombs from that short range at that low speed deserves what he gets -- my preferred delivery method kept the launcher *well* out of reach of whatever defense the bikers had put together. And when 1,500-lb. CBs became A Thing... well, one of those with LG could take out many times its cost in bikers and their bases. :)

Bringing this back to "manufacturers": I'm not sure how many helicopter makers listed in the _VG_s also built fixed-wings; I do have my brace of designs, but they never got officially published.
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Old 07-14-2021, 04:23 PM   #22
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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[snort] Anyone delivering bombs from that short range at that low speed deserves what he gets -- my preferred delivery method kept the launcher *well* out of reach of whatever defense the bikers had put together. And when 1,500-lb. CBs became A Thing... well, one of those with LG could take out many times its cost in bikers and their bases. :)

Bringing this back to "manufacturers": I'm not sure how many helicopter makers listed in the _VG_s also built fixed-wings; I do have my brace of designs, but they never got officially published.
Micro planes have a fair bit in common with Helicopters thought you need a completely different design teams but that is doable.
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Old 07-14-2021, 09:12 PM   #23
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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I am probably not being fair.

A car that is capable of catching a fast bike, probably doesn't have the means to do anything about it if they did. Any car that can is going to be so expensive an equivalent value in bikes (played intelligently) should be able to over match it.

I am therefore questioning the whole pursuit car idea. Sure it is very Mad Max, but Max's opponents didn't have cycle mounted weapons.
Revisiting this slightly because I had the wrong top speed on my Interceptor, Cycles cannot in general just laugh as Vulcan, you are right value to value off course but the think about Police is that they play pack tactics too, except with cars and occasionally Choppers. They also in a way play with a Black Credit Card too.
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Last edited by Daimyo_Shi; 07-14-2021 at 09:13 PM. Reason: added comment.
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Old 07-15-2021, 12:38 PM   #24
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

In reality any police force is at best funded to deal with what the taxpayer considers un-desireable. Many police forces have to make do with far less.

In game, police forces are generally strapped for funding as there are few taxpayers. They may be able to fund their activity with salvage, but cluster bombs from orbital stealth bombers will not make enough to cover the fuel and ammunition costs, let alone the occasional aircraft they will lose.

Of course you are at liberty to presume that police forces have more than enough resources to deal with cycle gangs, but then you have to consider that no cycle gangs can exist anymore, as 43 says, they will have been wiped out. Once you have got rid of the cycle gangs you don't really have much justification for armed cars anymore and the game becomes a bit redundant.

If you accept the canon view that cycle gangs DO exist, you must accept that omnipotent police either do not exist or find some other reason to justify the gangs continued existence. It is less difficult to assume the police are underfunded and overstretched as that has been the traditional position throughout history.

Your Mileage May Vary :)
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Old 07-15-2021, 12:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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In reality any police force is at best funded to deal with what the taxpayer considers un-desireable. Many police forces have to make do with far less.

In game, police forces are generally strapped for funding as there are few taxpayers. They may be able to fund their activity with salvage, but cluster bombs from orbital stealth bombers will not make enough to cover the fuel and ammunition costs, let alone the occasional aircraft they will lose.

Of course you are at liberty to presume that police forces have more than enough resources to deal with cycle gangs, but then you have to consider that no cycle gangs can exist anymore, as 43 says, they will have been wiped out. Once you have got rid of the cycle gangs you don't really have much justification for armed cars anymore and the game becomes a bit redundant.

If you accept the canon view that cycle gangs DO exist, you must accept that omnipotent police either do not exist or find some other reason to justify the gangs continued existence. It is less difficult to assume the police are underfunded and overstretched as that has been the traditional position throughout history.

Your Mileage May Vary :)
There is a different between and engagement of five to 7 cycles and taking on 50 or 100, numbers are the once of the reason Cycles survive and concealed and mobile base camps our another. It is tactical combat over Strategic combat. The original comment was about catching a bike with an interceptor and being effective with it. Many Cycles can out speed my RCMP Duty cars after all. While Police can be stretched and underfunded [Not to mention Corrupt] that doesn't change the unit tactics pursuit and roadblock which are tactics that existed in the 80's and now the only difference is that you can shoot at the cycles rather than just using spike strips.
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Old 07-15-2021, 02:59 PM   #26
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Somewhere in the sourcebooks is a quote: "There aren't that many cycle gangs left; but the ones which do exist are as well-armed as we are."

The *REALLY* Smart Cycle Gangs have taken a page from the CyClones of mid-Tennessee, and the Mafia and street gangs before them: They have essentially *become* Local Law Enforcement. 1st of the month, the locals pay the gangs, and receive a contact number in return; if there's a problem, the locals call the number, and the gang shows to deal with it.

Moreover: The gang makes sure to *NOT* predate upon the locals. This is the mistake which ended the Golden Age Of Piracy in the 1600s and 1700s -- the pirates would attack only Spanish possessions, and sell the proceeds to the English, Dutch, French, and (later) American colonials; the colonials, not having to pay extortionate amounts for basic supplies, were able to bootstrap up to where they were making actual money, and so gave the pirates a "safe harbor" to sell their prizes; then the pirates noticed "attacking Spanish property isn't that profitable any more; all the money is with the non-Spanish colonials"; the pirates then started attacking the non-Spanish colonials, thus ruining the aforementioned "safe harbors"; no longer having anywhere safe to hide, the pirates were soon wiped out. In the CWverse, cycle gangs do much the same -- they have a place where they do *NOT* engage in criminal acts, but actually provide useful goods and services (just don't ask where it came from, dig? :) ), and the locals in that area support them by Not Asking, Or Answering, Questions.

This means: In order to put an end to a Smart predatory cycle gang, one has to wait for them to leave their usual bailiwick, *then* Gallagher them....

As to the police: One of my recurring design "themes" is cost-effectiveness -- what's the least-expensive, most-effective design I can come up with? I'll admit an airplane is a spendy piece of kit; but if I can reuse it enough times, and better-yet do so without it taking damage, after a while, it pays for itself. Same for a semi-trailer rig; a _Wolverine_|_Brimstone_ is relatively inexpensive, and does absolutely *horrific* things to attacking bikes (I do love me some Flame Cloud :) ).
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Old 07-15-2021, 05:11 PM   #27
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

Yes this is clearly correct - the bad years of cannibal bikers are over. You also have to remember that to most people a biker gang might be preferable to the oppressive and corrupt local authorities of the nearby fortress town. Don't assume the people running the nearby fortress town are angels of democracy.

As Sword said if civilization has fully returned the first thing they'd do is restore law and order, so obviously in CW civilization has hit the skids like Mad Max (not Road Warrior).

I think the worst the local cops could probably do is gather some vigilantes and hunt the local gang down

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Somewhere in the sourcebooks is a quote: "There aren't that many cycle gangs left; but the ones which do exist are as well-armed as we are."

The *REALLY* Smart Cycle Gangs have taken a page from the CyClones of mid-Tennessee, and the Mafia and street gangs before them: They have essentially *become* Local Law Enforcement. 1st of the month, the locals pay the gangs, and receive a contact number in return; if there's a problem, the locals call the number, and the gang shows to deal with it.

.
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Old 07-15-2021, 05:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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Somewhere in the sourcebooks is a quote: "There aren't that many cycle gangs left; but the ones which do exist are as well-armed as we are."
Exactly my point, you shouldn't be meeting push-over bikers as they would have been pushed over by someone else beforehand.

Your well armed response is appropriate for a federal response but not a local force. My assumption is that there is no federal response.
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Old 07-15-2021, 05:27 PM   #29
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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There is a different between and engagement of five to 7 cycles and taking on 50 or 100, numbers are the once of the reason Cycles survive and concealed and mobile base camps our another. It is tactical combat over Strategic combat. The original comment was about catching a bike with an interceptor and being effective with it. Many Cycles can out speed my RCMP Duty cars after all. While Police can be stretched and underfunded [Not to mention Corrupt] that doesn't change the unit tactics pursuit and roadblock which are tactics that existed in the 80's and now the only difference is that you can shoot at the cycles rather than just using spike strips.
I agree Daimyo. Meeting small groups that are part of a larger group is perfectly logical. The large group may even disavow the small group if they lose (but they will gladly accept their loot if they win). Even though the large group could probably crush a small local police force, they don't as it isn't worth the hassle that will inevitably ensue. Kill a few citizens and the local police react, kill a few police departments and the state will react.

Regardless the group probably won't hit the same place more than once with neither the same roaming pack or a different one. If the police win, they probably win for that season as the gang will direct their efforts in easier directions.

I was more disagreeing with 43 that bikes can be written off as impossible (unless you have decided to have omnipotent police and your game is "whack-a-mole" - which is a game I wouldn't bother playing).

Last edited by swordtart; 07-15-2021 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 07-16-2021, 10:05 AM   #30
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Default Re: How many Auto Manufacturers are there in NA?

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I agree Daimyo. Meeting small groups that are part of a larger group is perfectly logical. The large group may even disavow the small group if they lose (but they will gladly accept their loot if they win). Even though the large group could probably crush a small local police force, they don't as it isn't worth the hassle that will inevitably ensue. Kill a few citizens and the local police react, kill a few police departments and the state will react.

Regardless the group probably won't hit the same place more than once with neither the same roaming pack or a different one. If the police win, they probably win for that season as the gang will direct their efforts in easier directions.

I was more disagreeing with 43 that bikes can be written off as impossible (unless you have decided to have omnipotent police and your game is "whack-a-mole" - which is a game I wouldn't bother playing).
Fair, and Honestly I thinking more in my own Campaign where most of the police are RCMP and how that give better communication, they have quality vehicles, they are stretch thin and given direction to keep travel routes open over over all policing. That likely is kind of unique also corruption is at an all time low.

Currently the Groups constant thorns in the RCMP are going to be groups that either are based in the US, as Huge amounts of settled Canada is in almost a single charge of the border or those for various reason can go to ground into populations or because they can create doubt of connection between the father organization and the raiders, or occasionally all of the above.
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