Talent/Spell of the Week: Toughness

[hcobb]

Do high levels of Unarmed Combat reduce damage in HTH, or is that just Toughness?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Do high levels of Unarmed Combat reduce damage in HTH, or is that just Toughness?

You'll need Toughness for that; there is no mention of damage reduction in any of the UC talents.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Shostak

You'll need Toughness for that; there is no mention of damage reduction in any of the UC talents.

Actually there is; from UCIII, attacks from the front hexes are at reduced damage. I wouldn’t allow that to include HTH as it isn’t specifically mentioned.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Actually there is; from UCIII, attacks from the front hexes are at reduced damage. I wouldn’t allow that to include HTH as it isn’t specifically mentioned.

Right--no reduced damage in HTH.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Actually there is; from UCIII, attacks from the front hexes are at reduced damage. I wouldn’t allow that to include HTH as it isn’t specifically mentioned.

Originally Posted by Shostak

Right--no reduced damage in HTH.

While ITL doesn't specifically mention UC damage reduction in HTH, I think that its ridiculous to not allow it in HTH. Doing so basically says that there is no reason to get UC talents in TFT. Part of being an UC type is being able to fight well with your bare hands while avoiding taking damage. There is no logical reason why such talents would be restricted in HTH-especially for an Unarmed Combatist.

The damage reduction as mentioned in ITL applies to the front hexes. When you go into HTH, you are up front and personal with your HTH opponent(s). A UC type in such a grapple would have the advantage of their UC talents including stopping or avoiding damage. I have grappled with a black belt who was considerably smaller than me. He definitely had advantages as a result and only more people working with me could subdue him. Without this additional help, he probably would have been able to keep avoiding being overpowered and come under my control and/or take damage and eventually wear me out (fatigue).

Now, as for another character attacking into the HTH hex (pile), there is a good argument for not allowing the UC damage stop because those attacking into the pile are not the focus of the UC guy in HTH unless he has disabled his opponent and has turned his focus to those around him. It would truly be like an attack from behind where his evasion bonuses would not apply.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Toughness is especially good for characters who use two-handed weapons which prevent them from using shields, but it is obviously good for anybody. I once played a pyromage who had Toughness II and a small, focused spell list.[/LIST]

The idea here is that you need some armour, but not a lot of armour, that the benefit to the character of the first point or two of armour is greater than the benefit of the fifth or sixth point of armour. It's not clear this is true: in some campaigns the benefit of armour can go up as the character gets more of it, because they become immune to the main sources of damage. The game might be better if this were true.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Now, as for another character attacking into the HTH hex (pile), there is a good argument for not allowing the UC damage stop because those attacking into the pile are not the focus of the UC guy in HTH unless he has disabled his opponent and has turned his focus to those around him. It would truly be like an attack from behind where his evasion bonuses would not apply.

This part is pretty clear from the rules. When you strike into an HTH pile, the characters are presumed (like all downed folks) to have their back to you. The attack is not coming from the brawler's front hexes, 'cause he ain't got none.

NOTE: I houserule that striking into a hex of folks in HTH does not gain the +4DX bonus, because otherwise, there's simply too small a chance of hitting an ally to even think twice about it. If you want the +4 bonus, then you can roll the dice and hit a random person in the hex. Sometimes, you just want to hit someone and you don't give a darn who.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by phiwum

This part is pretty clear from the rules. When you strike into an HTH pile, the characters are presumed (like all downed folks) to have their back to you. The attack is not coming from the brawler's front hexes, 'cause he ain't got none.

NOTE: I houserule that striking into a hex of folks in HTH does not gain the +4DX bonus, because otherwise, there's simply too small a chance of hitting an ally to even think twice about it. If you want the +4 bonus, then you can roll the dice and hit a random person in the hex. Sometimes, you just want to hit someone and you don't give a darn who.

I concur about the HTH pile up. That's an interesting house rule for consideration. LOL! Make sure that you choose truly good friends.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

The idea here is that you need some armour, but not a lot of armour, that the benefit to the character of the first point or two of armour is greater than the benefit of the fifth or sixth point of armor.

i've no idea how you arrive at that conclusion. Every point of damage reduction is a benefit. Those that come without a DX or MA penalty or require the use of a hand are especially good. In my experience with the wizard who had Toughness, that point of protection was the difference between living and dying more than once. But, if he had had more protection, he would have had a longer career.

[Axly Suregrip]

Hi,
Toughness talents are common for both PCs and NPCs. As Henry has pointed out that Legacy has changed to be more favorable to high DX characters with ST becoming the least important of the attributes. So, having a talent that prereqs ST is great and helps to balance the game. In particular, I love the fact the second version kicks in at ST 14. We were just discussing how two handed weapons are at a disadvantage. Toughness 2 pairs well with them.

Q1) What questions about Toughness have arisen in your games?
A1) Pretty much the ones you mentioned. How is it used very stingers (pierces up to leather armor, etc); Does it work against venom and/or gas bombs. What about Staff-3 damage, it penetrates armor but toughness is not armor (or so a player argued). My answer is that it strictly increases armor protection. It states, '...“Toughness” acts like armor
to subtract one point from every attack made against you.' That is, armor & toughness does not help with staff3, poison or gas. Armor blocks some stingers and I allows the points reduced to be an equivalent armor. That is, Leather + toughness is chainmail for stingers, etc. Just like it would if it was magic leather +1.

Q2) Do you use a RAW version of Toughness, or have you tweaked it?
A2) I use the Legacy version of Toughness. I thought the old versions Warrior & Veteran were good but I like this better as it is now harder to increase attributes and ST in general needed some love.

Q3) Describe the character from your games who was the most surprising to have taken Toughness.
A3) No surprises here. Fighter with a Lt Crossbow seems to be a common one that kind of is a surprise since they are not a front-line fighter (paired with Missile Weapons 3 to then also shoot every turn). Nearly all the experienced dumb tanks and some of the offensive fighters like to get the extra IQ so they have have a bit more armor without impacting their movement. If you are in the front line, it is top choice.

PS. One more question: resistances to molotail damage once it has soaked into the armor. Player was arguing that Toughness should continue to help since oil did not soak into the character. Molotails ignore armor after the first turn, so I also ignore toughness after the first turn.