Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Witchking

NOTE: I said I would not allow the AIM Maneuver. The AIM maneuver is NOT firing and taking a round (or more) to carefully line up a subsequent shot. It is exactly the type of rational, tactical, thoughtful maneuver I would not allow a berserker to have the advantage of taking.

The Aim manoeuvre is explicitly disallowed by the disadvantage. To allow it is to change the disadvantage, not just interpret it differently.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The Aim manoeuvre is explicitly disallowed by the disadvantage. To allow it is to change the disadvantage, not just interpret it differently.

Thanks.

I was pointing that out in reference to the quoted post which seemed to miss the fact that (theoretical GM hat on) I WAS referring to the Aim maneuver, I assumed he thought I was expressing the thought to only allow some sort of wild fire?

TBH it has been about 20 years or so since I read the full text of the actual advantage.

I did run a berserker once...

[Sholari]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I'm mostly curious about the ranged attack, but I wanted to know what the community thought about berserkers being stuck in close-combat as soon as anyone enters their hex.

In Roleplayer Number 1 when Berserk was first designed they had Berserk using high tech weaponry. It stated that you can use a gun but you can't aim. That is also stated in the 3rd edition Gurps Revised and 4th edition rules.

[RyanW]

I'd even allow a ready to pick up an available weapon, provided it is within arm's length and is the most obvious way to attack your target.

Basically, anything it takes to recreate Mac's reaction to Blain's death in Predator ("pick up huge gun and make everything in front of me die")

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Sholari

In Roleplayer Number 1 when Berserk was first designed they had Berserk using high tech weaponry. It stated that you can use a gun but you can't aim. That is also stated in the 3rd edition Gurps Revised and 4th edition rules.

Yes? Did you read the original post? The question is whether a berserker with a ready and loaded gun in his hand and foes within 15 yards has to close to melee or if he can stay and shoot.

The rules specifically say that a berserker can't make ranged attacks unless there are no foes within 20 yards, but it felt a little weird that an ultratech gunslinger would hit people with his pistol as a fist load over advancing and shooting.

[mushroom911]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

The rules specifically say that a berserker can't make ranged attacks unless there are no foes within 20 yards, but it felt a little weird that an ultratech gunslinger would hit people with his pistol as a fist load over advancing and shooting.

It doesnt explicitly say that you cant. It states you must move or move and attack until you are close enough to pound them into a pulp.
Move and attack allows you to fire your gun with a hefty penalty.

[Sholari]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Yes? Did you read the original post? The question is whether a berserker with a ready and loaded gun in his hand and foes within 15 yards has to close to melee or if he can stay and shoot.

The rules specifically say that a berserker can't make ranged attacks unless there are no foes within 20 yards, but it felt a little weird that an ultratech gunslinger would hit people with his pistol as a fist load over advancing and shooting.

I would agree that a gunslinger would shoot while advancing or stepping. What kind of bothers me is the rules give a distance to define what they can and can't do. The Berserker doesn't care and wouldn't be able to determine that anyway. Roleplayer Number 1 doesn't have a distance definition. It just states that if an experienced gunman goes berserk, he will fire as many shots as he can every turn, until his gun is empty or the foe is down.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Sholari

I would agree that a gunslinger would shoot while advancing or stepping. What kind of bothers me is the rules give a distance to define what they can and can't do. The Berserker doesn't care and wouldn't be able to determine that anyway. Roleplayer Number 1 doesn't have a distance definition. It just states that if an experienced gunman goes berserk, he will fire as many shots as he can every turn, until his gun is empty or the foe is down.

For a Gunslinger, I'd tend to work off skill and range penalties. Nobody who's Berserk will be Aiming. If basic skill (plus Acc without Aiming, from being a Gunslinger) less range penalties gives a reasonable chance to hit (say, 9 or less) then shoot, else advance to a better position.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

If you want to be legalistic about it, the paragraph says that "if no foe is within range, you must use a Move maneuver" but it also says, "if you can Move and Attack... you will."

I had to reread this...

"if you can Move and Attack, or end your Move with a slam, you will."

Is this possibly a typo, like maybe they meant to write "if you can Move and attack, TO end your Move with a Slam, you will" ?

It's pretty odd phrasing... you can't end a "Move" with a Slam AFAIK, to Slam you'd either need to do Move and Attack: Slam (no -4 to hit or 9 cap, keep your defenses) or All-Out Attack: Slam (no defenses but get the +4 to hit or +2 dmg) in either case, as of MA's update, you get full move and get to attempt a slam.

I'm actually wondering if M&A Slam should even be allowed anymore for Berserk. In the spirit of forcing All-Out Attack in melee, now that MA has gifted 100% basic move for AOA:slam, shouldn't Berserkers be obligated to choose that instead of "Move and Slam" ?

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

As for All Out Attack only allowing forward motion, and not wanting a berserk character to have the presence of mind to step backwards to be able to use their melee weapon more effectively, one solution that is compatible with RAW might be an All Out Attack (Double) with a shove as the first attack.

Although Berserk doesn't actually specify you need to make damaging attack, I always got the impression that a Berserker would try to make lethal and damaging hits, not 'no wounding' attacks like shoves or Judo Throw or Tripping, unless of course the intent was to put them into a position so you could do a damaging hit once they're on the ground.

If you didn't want to Berserk-kill your allies, opting for no-wounding stuff like this seems like a metagame way of giving them extra time to escape.

Same w/ throwing telegraphic attacks if you're hoping your allies will parry you, or throwing deceptive attacks hoping you'll miss

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

It's not RAW, but I've seen house rules for Berserk gunmen which allow them to AoA with their weapon until it's empty.

That is RAW not a House Rule AFAIK, B124 says:

"you may attack with a ranged weapon if you have one, but you may not take the Aim maneuver.
If using a gun, you blaze away at your maximum rate of fire until your gun is empty"

So the main restriction is you need to burst like a madman and can't use lower ROF.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

They can then roll to see if they can immediately ready another ready ranged weapon and use it until its out of ammo.

I think this is also RAW (at least in 4E) and not a Houserule:

"Once your gun is empty, you must either draw another gun or charge into melee combat."

I expect this is intended to mean (like with reloading) only if you're able to draw the gun in 1 second or less, though it doesn't say this.

Originally Posted by RyanW

I'd even allow a ready to pick up an available weapon, provided it is within arm's length and is the most obvious way to attack your target.

Basically, anything it takes to recreate Mac's reaction to Blain's death in Predator ("pick up huge gun and make everything in front of me die")

Yeah, just that drawing from a holster (or grabbing from a table) should be something instantaneous (like with reloading).

Or if we were going to have a more flexible system (maybe not a hard cap on 1 second for reloading/drawing) basically the longer it would take to ready a weapon for shooting (and also the further it is from you to NOTICE that weapon) should all make it more difficult to do.

Like I could see rolling against your self-control number while berserk to be able to do stuff like this, maybe with a bonus/penalty based on "distance to weapon" plus "seconds needed to reach weapon".

Always-fail berserkers (like zombies) could never do this (they could attack with a cleaver in the hand but never pick up the cleaver) whereas sometimes-berserkers (like barbarians) could calm down enough mid-berserk to feasibly do these things.

Originally Posted by mushroom911

It states you must move or move and attack until you are close enough to pound them into a pulp.
Move and attack allows you to fire your gun with a hefty penalty.

I don't think you're forced to use Move and Attack (Ranged) if armed w/ a ranged weapon so long as they're 20+ yards away.

Do you mean in the context of being armed w/ a ranged weapon at 1-19 yards?

The "must use a Move" requirement in the 1st bullet is in the context of "armed with a hand weapon" which I think the 2nd "if the enemy is more than 20" bullet overrides.

The 20-yard hardcap is a weird situation and I'd like to see a soft-capped approach to this, such as making a self control roll regarding whether you are obligated to move closer or not, with a bonus the further away they are.

Basically the longer it would take to engage in melee combat the easier it should be to resist doing, if you have a non-melee alternative to attack them. It should be easier to rationalize "I should stay put and not take the -4 to hit penalty, so that I have a better chance of shooting them" if it would take several seconds of sprinting to run up and pistol-whip them (because apparently that's just a very appealing idea?)

Berserkers shooting their guns (in lieu of "move and pistolwhip" melee attempts) should probably also be easier the weaker the shooter is. The ST5 hobbit who makes staff hits at 1d-4 crushing should have an easier time of staying put and lobbing his 2d burning fireballs at an ogre compared to the ST15 human who throws 1d fireballs and hits with his staff for 2d+1

Originally Posted by johndallman

For a Gunslinger, I'd tend to work off skill and range penalties. Nobody who's Berserk will be Aiming. If basic skill (plus Acc without Aiming, from being a Gunslinger) less range penalties gives a reasonable chance to hit (say, 9 or less) then shoot, else advance to a better position.

Basically the higher odds you have of missing, the greater the odds should be of having the presence of mind to move to a closer position before firing. Rather than a hardcap of 9 skill I'd like to see a softcap system where you get a bonus to a self control roll based on the difficulty of the shot.

I think payload should also factor into this. If you have only 1 or 2 shots it should be way easier to resist the call of "fire immediately who cares if I miss" compared to having 100+ shots where "I may as well try and hit him now while I do a move and attack, i have plenty of extra shots in seconds to come"

This also prevents silliness like a Berserker throwing their sword prematurely before closing into melee distance - because that changes "unlimited payload" into "single-shot payload" and is generally a bad idea for your odds of injuring a foe.

Maybe your estimation of their defensive capability should also factor into it. If you're confident your foe will dodge a bunch of your hits, you should be more able to resist the impulse of chucking the sword.

[Rupert]

You keep talking about 'rationalising', 'presence of mind', and 'estimation'. I don't think any of that is really applicable to a berserker.

I also think you're over-thinking things - the berserker is not going to throw their sword at someone they can close with, because it's not how such a weapon is normally used. If they can't close with an enemy, then perhaps (and it'd be more likely if they were armed with a mace or axe and had the skill to throw it).