Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

[Not]

GMs should, in my opinion, let the spirit rule. If a berserk pc wants to roll to scrounge a socket wrench while brawling in an auto garage, I say yes.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

It's not RAW, but I've seen house rules for Berserk gunmen which allow them to AoA with their weapon until it's empty. They can then roll to see if they can immediately ready another ready ranged weapon and use it until its out of ammo. Only once they're out of ranged weapons which they can use on an "instinctive" level do they charge.

I could live with that but if GM I would not allow the gunman use of the Aim maneuver.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

These issues came up in my game recently:

Berserk as written is terrible and I tend to ignore it.

My version: The character must All-Out Attack, Change Position*, Move, or Move and Attack every round towards the closest enemy using whatever weapon they have in hand or can Fast-Draw. If those choices don't make sense, find one that best represents the character trying to do just that. If an option requires thought or consideration beyond 'muscle-memory' level instincts, it's not a valid option.

* Only if it gets them to the enemy faster.

So a prone PC who is berserk with a foe in Reach? They attack from the ground.

Prone PC with a foe in "crawl and attack" (Move and Attack but crawling) range? Crawl and Attack.

Foe within melee Reach but they have a ranged weapon that can be used 'instantly' (loaded firearm, drawn bow, etc), use ranged weapon. If not use the ranged weapon as a melee weapon (or if they are trained in an Unarmed, use Unarmed skill).

I also allow things like "Trading Attacks for Readies", so Unreadied weapons can be Readied with the first attack of AOA (Double) and attack with the second for a berserker.

Berseker Plus Heroic Archer is an interesting twist which I've allowed. I'm not sure it "worked fine"... but it was interesting.

And with Berserk and Bloodlust, I allow Bloodlust to overcome Berserk for purposes of chasing foes (preference of foe that attacked you over foe that is closer) and "making sure the foe is down". Because those are often tactically worse choices, which really is what Berserk is about at the end of the day, tactically poor choices.


However I've seen plenty of berserker characters where Berserk was never an impediment, until they ran out of foes.

The team's berserker was lying prone with a laser pistol in hand when he went berserk.

I would have let him fire from prone.

I ruled he could get to his feet (he did an Acrobatic Stand) but I'm not sure what the rules require.

Perfect ruling. Even Kromm would agree with that one.

Was I right to rule that the berserker had to stay in close-combat?

Yes, by both spirit and technical reading.

He'd fast-draw a cutlass at this point and was taking penalties for using a long weapon in close combat, but Berserkers apparently don't fall back to tactically superior ground.

Perfectly fine and true, berserkers will not retreat.

[mlangsdorf]

The question isn't whether he can fire while prone - that's obviously a legitimate action - but whether he can fire at all, even with a ready pistol in hand, at foes within 20 yards.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Witchking

I could live with that but if GM I would not allow the gunman use of the Aim maneuver.

I always judge stuff like this based on what the trait is supposed to be modelling - which is not "character has a restricted menu of maneuver options", that's a pure game mechanical construct, not a description of whatever "real" thing Berserk is supposed to represent.

Usually, though not necessarily always, it's supposed to represent "character is so enraged and eager to kill he can't think straight". If you are trained gunman with a weapon in hand, point the gun in the general direction of a foe and pull the trigger until it is empty (that is, AoA without aiming) is a perfectly reasonable response to being furiously eager to kill somebody. So does "stand up and charge, swinging the gun as a bludgeon". On the other hand "let go of the gun and crawl toward the foe" people seem to get from the literal reading of the rules is utterly ridiculous - enraged people trying to kill each other don't slowly crawl toward the enemy.

Can you reready a weapon in your hand to use it in another way (e.g. ready your pistol to use it as a bludgeon rather than as a firearm). Yes absolutely.

Can you change posture. Yes, if you are going to a posture that lets you charge more effectively. Note that this is one of those reality vs. the rules issues too - just because it calls for a Change Posture maneuver or not doesn't mean it is or isn't a posture change in reality. If you rule no, then how do you allow a change from say a shooting stance to a posture in which you even [could] charge? You can't very well run in a posture you are braced to shoot.

Can you draw another weapon? Maybe, especially if you can do it while charging toward the enemy, or reflexively with Fast Draw, but I might restrict you to your usual "go to" weapon rather than let you decide which of the half dozen specialty weapons you carry on you would be most effective.

Can you reload? Not usually. That takes too much coordinated thought that isn't directed toward killing. But say you are a starship gunner in a sealed gun pod. Can you hit the auto-reload button if your only other "aggressive" option is beat on the viewscreen trying to punch through the hull to reach your foes separated from you by kilometers of vacuum? Maybe.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I always judge stuff like this based on what the trait is supposed to be modelling . . .

Usually, though not necessarily always, it's supposed to represent "character is so enraged and eager to kill he can't think straight".

Agreed. Take the fastest, simplest way to killing the opponent.

Originally Posted by malloyd

But say you are a starship gunner in a sealed gun pod. Can you hit the auto-reload button if your only other "aggressive" option is beat on the viewscreen trying to punch through the hull to reach your foes separated from you by kilometers of vacuum? Maybe.

Using the intercom to scream at all the other gunners to shoot the target you were trying to kill is also a possibility.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Usually, though not necessarily always, it's supposed to represent "character is so enraged and eager to kill he can't think straight". If you are trained gunman with a weapon in hand, point the gun in the general direction of a foe and pull the trigger until it is empty (that is, AoA without aiming) is a perfectly reasonable response to being furiously eager to kill somebody.

I am not disagreeing with this nor did I say that I (if GM) would disallow it.

NOTE: I said I would not allow the AIM Maneuver. The AIM maneuver is NOT firing and taking a round (or more) to carefully line up a subsequent shot. It is exactly the type of rational, tactical, thoughtful maneuver I would not allow a berserker to have the advantage of taking.

Pointing a gun at an enemy (or closest target) and blazing away with whatever inherent bonuses apply, fine.

Taking a round or three to calculate the windage, factor in the bullet drop for range, and project the target's dodges for a pattern. Nuh-Uh.

[Plane]

IMO we get a solution via Technical Grappling:

1) use attack maneuvers for readying weapons

2) use attack maneuvers to change your own posture

[Verjigorm]

On Martial Arts, page 179 it discusses Beserk and how beserker can do things that are not all out attack. They just all out(no defense) during that. So if they are prone, they all out and stand up(gaining either +4 to DX rolls required, or +2 to st rolls needed). They just cannot defend.

The strict RAW interpretation that ends up with prone beserker crawling forward every turn is, imho, nonsensical and overly restrictive.

Edit: I would allow them, for example, to reload. The classic Hollywood scene of the soldier walking into fire, just dumping rounds from his machineguns, for example, strikes me as Beserk.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This seems almost RAW to me. In a sense it amounts to a ruling that "reload" includes "New York reloads".

The text specifically allows drawing another gun when your current one is empty as an option. It's actually more lenient on that (it lists no time limit) than it is on reloading, which must take no more than one turn (allowing for Fast-Draw), which effectively limits reloads to bows and slings, and then only with successful Fast-Draw rolls.

I would absolutely allow a Change Posture manoeuvre, as long as it would result in closing faster than not doing so. Note that as crawling or kneeling gives 1/3 movement, if you're fairly close standing up and then moving might take just as long as just crawling to the foe (but most people would probably automatically stand unless the enemy is only one move away, I think, just because it's a generally better posture from which to try and kill someone).