A Different Take on Imbuements

[Anthony]

Here's a radically different take on Imbuements, that entirely gets rid of secondary rolls:

Imbuements

Imbuements are techniques off of ST (normally Striking). You don't roll them at all, you just use your Imbuement level in place of ST for computing damage.

Imbuements for enhancements have a default of ST-(x/5), where x is the percent enhancement, and a maximum of ST-(x/10). Thus, an armor piercing strike would normally be at ST-10 and could be raised to ST-5. You may buy Striking ST (Imbuements Only, -20%) to raise further, but not above ST.

Imbuements for limitations (you want an extra time punch, or only vs a limited class of foes, or w/e) have a default of ST+0 and may be raised to a maximum of ST+(x/5).

Imbuements can be stacked.

(Note: has combinations with KYoS to make a bit more sense).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Here's a radically different take on Imbuements, that entirely gets rid of secondary rolls:

I should note my suggestion also gets rid of secondary rolls, but I do find this take to be a rather interesting one. It makes a certain degree of sense to base it on ST, and penalizing damage rather than skill is an interesting effect.

I think I prefer the flavor of my version, but the ST-based one could certainly be workable.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Varyon

For (2), I feel the fact you can't use your weapon skill for other effects - improved hit location, Deceptive Attack, Rapid Strike, etc is a sufficient deterrent, although you clearly disagree.

It's less about the trade off of using your skill for something else and more about allowing the skill to be that versatile or useful. You're allowing it to do a lot more than it presently does with a token UB.

I'll readily admit my experience with GURPS is more theoretical than practical.

Lately, especially with "social distancing" mine has been a lot more theoretical than practical too...

The reason to have a decent Shield skill is primarily so Block is useful in situations where it's required

We aren't really disagreeing here. I just just that -2 to block is a good way to save 11 points figuring AoD (+2), retreat (+3), or Feverish Defense (+2) will be used the few times you need it.

The high Judo skill is so the character isn't helpless if he gets grappled by an enemy (and Judo rather than Wrestling largely because I feel the former is more than useful enough to justify the +1 to difficulty; if there were a DX/E grappling skill, however, I'd have likely gone with that).

Wrestling gives you a ST bonus for grappling. Judo is better for parrying, allows throws, and lots of useful techniques if MA rules are in play. Judo is affected by Encumbrance but Wrestling is not, so it depends on what you're using for equipment.

[1] in Shortsword, allowing the character to default off the 18 he has in that (from Broadsword 20) to have Knife 15; this doesn't really have any impact on the analysis.

Yes... it's just not a factor for if raising DX is a good investment.

From a "we don't want the character to be able to invest in one thing to increase everything" standpoint, a character with 2 DX-based skills at [8+] and three imbuements is better off investing in DX than their skills (at least until they no longer have 5 skills at [8+]), so we're roughly in the same boat either way - we've gained nothing beyond a higher absolute cost by making the imbuements skills rather than Techniques.

Eh, you're trying to say raising one thing is roughly the same as raising something else.

1 DX = 5 skills = 20 techniques (if raised by 1 point each). Moving it up directly affects how much stuff the character can afford. DX provides more, hence it costs more. Skill is more focused, but you can get +5 levels of skill for +1 DX. If you only have 20 points to spend, getting a +5 is much better than a +1. In your system that's the difference between buying off -1 vs buying off -5.

So, now let's look at what it arguably should cost. Note this is under the assumption characters have the option of buying Natural Weapons

Natural weapons:
1) Base cost of 5-8. Each 10% is worth 0.5 - 0.8 points.
2) Natural weapons work off Thr. Modifying it to swing is possible for +20%.
3) Most weapons add damage to your thrust (normally +30% per +1)
4) Natural weapons are built in (-20% requires specific weapon type), don't cost fatigue (-10%*), can can't be hidden (+20%) by default.

Sure, assuming the weapon replaces the base cost we have a fair means of saying you should pay about 1 point per 10% of ability on a weapon. Changing that to a -1 to skill, where you're already paying for skill to do other things, essentially makes it a different way to use high skill for free.

It seems like you should have to pay something for access to each imbuement ability outside of skill, outside of the UB for access.

Skills was one idea, though the cost might not work out as adding them as a DX skill and I do share concerns about adding on something else to DX. The cheapest way to make them a skill would be to make imbuements easy skills (which means you don't get cost saving until they are at Attr+2 already) and/or base them off something else such as Will.
Making them Will/E allow you to upgrade 5 Imbuement skills for 5 points after you have 5 imbuements already at Will+2. It also means you're now paying at least 8-9 (2 skills or 1 skill + will) to upgrade your abilities rather than 4 (just skill) points. I'd suggest using HT as a skill base instead of Will or DX. 10/lvl gives you more room for skill use and HT isn't as overloaded.

This doesn't work as well for weapons that don't make direct use of the character's ST (like firearms, force swords, etc), of course, but I don't think "It doesn't work for guns" makes the approach invalid for things like swords and bows.

I'd rather have solutions that works well for both if possible.

Tech!

That's an interesting idea, but these effects certainly don't need to be cheaper. With cheap costs and super flexibility, the melee fighters will also be able to do everything a bow guy or mage can.

Honestly, I feel "Weapon Masters can trade skill for extra effects" is a good thing, likely to result in more interesting situations. If you prefer not to have this effect in play, the system isn't a good fit for you.

Options in character building make the game more interesting. Allowing weapon masters to do things for little or no points that other niches pay to do, wouldn't. Why make an archer when sword masters can strike at the same distance for more damage more often?

I don't feel this would break the game - particularly considering how effective targeting the Eyes Slits is (-10 to hit to negate all DR and get a total WM of x4; -10 to hit and 1 FP is only enough to get AD (3), +1 to the WM, or AD (2) and +0.5 to WM with the imbuement Techniques) - but perhaps it would at your table.

Generally if you can reliable shoot out eyes, you're in a fantasy game where quite a few things don't have eyes or they have magic items that protect eyes. In such a game the flexibility to switch your weapon to a flaming attack to deal with slimes or an electrical attack to deal with metal foes is quite a useful trick - one that usually requires expensive magic or quite a few points.

*Technically, GURPS doesn't charge you for things like this - if you want to say your burning innate attack is a holy flame (for interactions with Limited DR, IT:DR, Vulnerability, etc), that's considered a Feature. Personally, I think there should be a cost; while I'm not sure what it should be for your summoned sword to always count as Silver, say, I do feel the ability to change it is about right at +20% for Very Common, +40% for Common, +60% for Occasional, and +80% for Rare.

Holy stuff is usually campaign specific. I'd figure out what advantages are requires to give you holy abilities separately then allow them to stack. Holy guys with holy karate or holy swordplay might as well be able to add imbuements to their attacks.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Here's a radically different take on Imbuements, that entirely gets rid of secondary rolls:

That seems to be a common desire among all the proposed solutions.

Imbuements

Imbuements are techniques off of ST (normally Striking). You don't roll them at all, you just use your Imbuement level in place of ST for computing damage.

How would you handle weapons that don't do damage or your ST value? Guns, bolas, etc.

[AlexanderHowl]

Of course, any solution runs into issues with Modular Abilities. With the RAW Imbuement Skills, you could use Modular Abilities 20 (Slotted Cosmic Power; Emergencies Only, -30%; Magical, -10%; Takes Recharge, 15 seconds, -20%; Trait-Limited, Imbuement Skills Only, -20%) [22] to represent a character who can manifest a different Imbuement Skill during emergencies, as frequently as once every 15 seconds. at DX+3. With the technique version though, you could instead do Modular Abilities 20 (Slotted Cosmic Powers; Emergencies Only, -30%, Magical, -10%; Takes Recharge, 5 second, -10%; Trait-Limited, Imbuement Techniques Only, -30%) [22] to represent a character that can manifest a different Imbuement Technique during emergencies, as frequently as once every 5 seconds, at Default+20. The former is useful but not broken, given the expense of Imbuement Skills, but the latter is extraordinarily broken.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Of course, any solution runs into issues with Modular Abilities. With the RAW Imbuement Skills, you could use Modular Abilities 20 (Slotted Cosmic Power; Emergencies Only, -30%; Magical, -10%; Takes Recharge, 15 seconds, -20%; Trait-Limited, Imbuement Skills Only, -20%) [42] to represent a character who can manifest a different Imbuement Skill during emergencies, as frequently as once every 15 seconds. at DX+3. With the technique version though, you could instead do Modular Abilities 20 (Slotted Cosmic Powers; Emergencies Only, -30%, Magical, -10%; Takes Recharge, 5 second, -10%; Trait-Limited, Imbuement Techniques Only, -30%) [22] to represent a character that can manifest a different Imbuement Technique during emergencies, as frequently as once every 5 seconds, at Default+20. The former is useful but not broken, given the expense of Imbuement Skills, but the latter is extraordinarily broken.

I'm not certain where your costs are coming from, exactly, or why two cases with an identical number of points available and -80% worth of Limitations have such massive differences in cost. If [22] is correct, you must be using something around [5] per point, which would correspond to taking 1 second per point of ability, which is going to make it much less useful than you're implying (any sort of emergency probably requires you to act within a second or so, not take several seconds rearranging your abilities and then acting). If [42] is correct, that's somewhere around [10] per point, where it takes 1 second to change abilities; seeing as Tech! +20 gives comparable functionality, but without a second to rearrange (or 5 seconds between rearrangements), no reliance on mana and emergencies, isn't limited to Imbuements (but is limited to a single skill), and costs [50], [42] honestly doesn't sound terribly broken.

[AlexanderHowl]

The price should be 22 CP, I will change it. Slotted Cosmic Powers comes from Psionic Powers (p. 15). They take one second per trait. If you are talking about Wildcard Techniques, aren't they specialized by technique and don't they cost 6 CP/3 CP for the first level plus 3 CP per level after the first? For example, you could develop DWA!, which would apply to every combat skill, for 6 CP for the first level and 3 CP every additional level.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The price should be 22 CP, I will change it. Slotted Cosmic Powers comes from Psionic Powers (p. 15). They take one second per trait. If you are talking about Wildcard Techniques, aren't they specialized by technique and don't they cost 6 CP/3 CP for the first level plus 3 CP per level after the first? For example, you could develop DWA!, which would apply to every combat skill, for 6 CP for the first level and 3 CP every additional level.

Ah, I don't have Psionic Powers. Still, getting a rearrangeable [20] for only [22] is almost certainly broken, regardless of how the underlying traits work. As for Tech!, that's from a previously-linked thread (but here it is again, so that you needn't search back through the thread). It's basically [5] per +2 to a single skill, but only for purposes of negating penalties for using Techniques (and the first level is typically only a +1, due to the way Hard Techniques work).