Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

[mlangsdorf]

These issues came up in my game recently:

The team's berserker was lying prone with a laser pistol in hand when he went berserk.
He had opponents within 5 yards. Based on the text, he's required to engage in hand to hand combat (opponents aren't beyond 20 yards) and must take Move or Move and Attack maneuvers.

I ruled he could get to his feet (he did an Acrobatic Stand) but I'm not sure what the rules require. Also, I'm pretty sure he can't shoot his foes, he has to run at them and hit them in hand to hand.

While he was advanced, another person attempted to slam him but missed, ending up in the berserker's hex. Berserkers must use the All-Out Attack maneuver to make an attack against the closest enemy, and AoA only allows forward movement.

Was I right to rule that the berserker had to stay in close-combat? He'd fast-draw a cutlass at this point and was taking penalties for using a long weapon in close combat, but Berserkers apparently don't fall back to tactically superior ground.

I'm mostly curious about the ranged attack, but I wanted to know what the community thought about berserkers being stuck in close-combat as soon as anyone enters their hex.

[Varyon]

RAW, I believe the Berserk character would have been required to crawl toward the nearest foe over the course of several rounds, then engage in melee once the foe had been reached. Personally, I have no objection to the character first standing up - indeed, I'd probably allow for an All Out Change Posture, letting the character go from prone to kneeling to standing in one go (or if a single Change Posture would be sufficient - as for an Acrobatic Stand or going from kneeling to standing - let the character stand up and move up to 1/2 Move). If the character was able to reach a foe and attack them in melee with an All Out Attack, I'd require the character to do so; if no foes are close enough, I'd instead allow them to charge at the nearest foe with an All Out Attack, firing their weapon as they go. I wouldn't require a Berserk character to stay too close to use their melee weapon - I'd allow an All Out Attack to involve a Step back (the "only forward movement" bit I'd restrict to if a character were using the 1/2 Move granted by the maneuver), but I believe the RAW would indeed require the character to stay in close combat (with a cutlass, this would probably mean pommel strikes).

[Mr_Sandman]

I agree that the strict, rules as written interpretation of berserk doesn't allow change posture, but it seems more in keeping with the spirit to allow it, if it would get the berserk character to his enemies faster than crawling. Especially if the character is capable of making an acrobatic stand.

It might not be RAW, but I also don't see any problem with a berserk character using an All Out Attack or Move and Attack to shoot a pistol while closing with an enemy. If you want to be legalistic about it, the paragraph says that "if no foe is within range, you must use a Move maneuver" but it also says, "if you can Move and Attack... you will." Having a pistol in hand means the foe is technically 'in range', and it is possible to make a Move and Attack to close while firing.

As for All Out Attack only allowing forward motion, and not wanting a berserk character to have the presence of mind to step backwards to be able to use their melee weapon more effectively, one solution that is compatible with RAW might be an All Out Attack (Double) with a shove as the first attack.

[mlangsdorf]

I didn't think to suggest a push followed by a strike, but that does seem legitimate. But that's also the berserker's player's problem. RAW, which makes sense to me, is that he can't move away from the close combat.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

If you want to be legalistic about it, the paragraph says that "if no foe is within range, you must use a Move maneuver" but it also says, "if you can Move and Attack... you will."

I had to reread this...

"if you can Move and Attack, or end your Move with a slam, you will."

Is this possibly a typo, like maybe they meant to write "if you can Move and attack, TO end your Move with a Slam, you will" ?

It's pretty odd phrasing... you can't end a "Move" with a Slam AFAIK, to Slam you'd either need to do Move and Attack: Slam (no -4 to hit or 9 cap, keep your defenses) or All-Out Attack: Slam (no defenses but get the +4 to hit or +2 dmg) in either case, as of MA's update, you get full move and get to attempt a slam.

I'm actually wondering if M&A Slam should even be allowed anymore for Berserk. In the spirit of forcing All-Out Attack in melee, now that MA has gifted 100% basic move for AOA:slam, shouldn't Berserkers be obligated to choose that instead of "Move and Slam" ?

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

As for All Out Attack only allowing forward motion, and not wanting a berserk character to have the presence of mind to step backwards to be able to use their melee weapon more effectively, one solution that is compatible with RAW might be an All Out Attack (Double) with a shove as the first attack.

Although Berserk doesn't actually specify you need to make damaging attack, I always got the impression that a Berserker would try to make lethal and damaging hits, not 'no wounding' attacks like shoves or Judo Throw or Tripping, unless of course the intent was to put them into a position so you could do a damaging hit once they're on the ground.

If you didn't want to Berserk-kill your allies, opting for no-wounding stuff like this seems like a metagame way of giving them extra time to escape.

Same w/ throwing telegraphic attacks if you're hoping your allies will parry you, or throwing deceptive attacks hoping you'll miss

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

It's not RAW, but I've seen house rules for Berserk gunmen which allow them to AoA with their weapon until it's empty.

That is RAW not a House Rule AFAIK, B124 says:

"you may attack with a ranged weapon if you have one, but you may not take the Aim maneuver.
If using a gun, you blaze away at your maximum rate of fire until your gun is empty"

So the main restriction is you need to burst like a madman and can't use lower ROF.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

They can then roll to see if they can immediately ready another ready ranged weapon and use it until its out of ammo.

I think this is also RAW (at least in 4E) and not a Houserule:

"Once your gun is empty, you must either draw another gun or charge into melee combat."

I expect this is intended to mean (like with reloading) only if you're able to draw the gun in 1 second or less, though it doesn't say this.

Originally Posted by RyanW

I'd even allow a ready to pick up an available weapon, provided it is within arm's length and is the most obvious way to attack your target.

Basically, anything it takes to recreate Mac's reaction to Blain's death in Predator ("pick up huge gun and make everything in front of me die")

Yeah, just that drawing from a holster (or grabbing from a table) should be something instantaneous (like with reloading).

Or if we were going to have a more flexible system (maybe not a hard cap on 1 second for reloading/drawing) basically the longer it would take to ready a weapon for shooting (and also the further it is from you to NOTICE that weapon) should all make it more difficult to do.

Like I could see rolling against your self-control number while berserk to be able to do stuff like this, maybe with a bonus/penalty based on "distance to weapon" plus "seconds needed to reach weapon".

Always-fail berserkers (like zombies) could never do this (they could attack with a cleaver in the hand but never pick up the cleaver) whereas sometimes-berserkers (like barbarians) could calm down enough mid-berserk to feasibly do these things.

Originally Posted by mushroom911

It states you must move or move and attack until you are close enough to pound them into a pulp.
Move and attack allows you to fire your gun with a hefty penalty.

I don't think you're forced to use Move and Attack (Ranged) if armed w/ a ranged weapon so long as they're 20+ yards away.

Do you mean in the context of being armed w/ a ranged weapon at 1-19 yards?

The "must use a Move" requirement in the 1st bullet is in the context of "armed with a hand weapon" which I think the 2nd "if the enemy is more than 20" bullet overrides.

The 20-yard hardcap is a weird situation and I'd like to see a soft-capped approach to this, such as making a self control roll regarding whether you are obligated to move closer or not, with a bonus the further away they are.

Basically the longer it would take to engage in melee combat the easier it should be to resist doing, if you have a non-melee alternative to attack them. It should be easier to rationalize "I should stay put and not take the -4 to hit penalty, so that I have a better chance of shooting them" if it would take several seconds of sprinting to run up and pistol-whip them (because apparently that's just a very appealing idea?)

Berserkers shooting their guns (in lieu of "move and pistolwhip" melee attempts) should probably also be easier the weaker the shooter is. The ST5 hobbit who makes staff hits at 1d-4 crushing should have an easier time of staying put and lobbing his 2d burning fireballs at an ogre compared to the ST15 human who throws 1d fireballs and hits with his staff for 2d+1

Originally Posted by johndallman

For a Gunslinger, I'd tend to work off skill and range penalties. Nobody who's Berserk will be Aiming. If basic skill (plus Acc without Aiming, from being a Gunslinger) less range penalties gives a reasonable chance to hit (say, 9 or less) then shoot, else advance to a better position.

Basically the higher odds you have of missing, the greater the odds should be of having the presence of mind to move to a closer position before firing. Rather than a hardcap of 9 skill I'd like to see a softcap system where you get a bonus to a self control roll based on the difficulty of the shot.

I think payload should also factor into this. If you have only 1 or 2 shots it should be way easier to resist the call of "fire immediately who cares if I miss" compared to having 100+ shots where "I may as well try and hit him now while I do a move and attack, i have plenty of extra shots in seconds to come"

This also prevents silliness like a Berserker throwing their sword prematurely before closing into melee distance - because that changes "unlimited payload" into "single-shot payload" and is generally a bad idea for your odds of injuring a foe.

Maybe your estimation of their defensive capability should also factor into it. If you're confident your foe will dodge a bunch of your hits, you should be more able to resist the impulse of chucking the sword.

[Rupert]

You keep talking about 'rationalising', 'presence of mind', and 'estimation'. I don't think any of that is really applicable to a berserker.

I also think you're over-thinking things - the berserker is not going to throw their sword at someone they can close with, because it's not how such a weapon is normally used. If they can't close with an enemy, then perhaps (and it'd be more likely if they were armed with a mace or axe and had the skill to throw it).

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

The question isn't whether he can fire while prone - that's obviously a legitimate action - but whether he can fire at all, even with a ready pistol in hand, at foes within 20 yards.

Ahem, to quote myself: "Berserk as written is terrible and I tend to ignore [the terrible parts]."

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

These issues came up in my game recently:

The team's berserker was lying prone with a laser pistol in hand when he went berserk.
He had opponents within 5 yards. Based on the text, he's required to engage in hand to hand combat (opponents aren't beyond 20 yards) and must take Move or Move and Attack maneuvers.

I ruled he could get to his feet (he did an Acrobatic Stand) but I'm not sure what the rules require. Also, I'm pretty sure he can't shoot his foes, he has to run at them and hit them in hand to hand.

While he was advanced, another person attempted to slam him but missed, ending up in the berserker's hex. Berserkers must use the All-Out Attack maneuver to make an attack against the closest enemy, and AoA only allows forward movement.

Was I right to rule that the berserker had to stay in close-combat? He'd fast-draw a cutlass at this point and was taking penalties for using a long weapon in close combat, but Berserkers apparently don't fall back to tactically superior ground.

I'm mostly curious about the ranged attack, but I wanted to know what the community thought about berserkers being stuck in close-combat as soon as anyone enters their hex.

This is a case well-suited to being the GM's call, but I believe your call was perhaps too rigid. The first two specific rules didn't apply as the berserk character had neither a hand weapon nor an opponent no closer than 20 yards.

The intended effect of the rules appears to be that the berserk character ceases to behave in a deliberative fashion and gives himself over to mindless aggressive violence with reckless disregard for his own safety or even continued survival.

IIRC, Erle Stanley Garner once described why domestic quarrels where the wife had a handgun so often seemed to end with her husband dead. "They don't aim, they don't raise the gun, they just tuck their arm into their side, point the gun like it was their finger and proceed to shoot him to doll rags." He wasn't a policeman but he was a lawyer before he became a writer in the 1920s, so he likely picked that idea up from some of his clients or from law enforcement.

Disclaimer: I've never had a berserker attempt to do me grievous bodily harm*, so take this with an appropriate grain of salt.

It would seem well-within the realm of possibility for your berserker to have opened up on the nearest enemy with his laser pistol while still prone, not aiming, but proceeding to shot that opponent to doll rags. His priority will be attempting to do harm to his enemies. If he can't rise "mindlessly" while continuing to fire, similar to the rule for reloading a firearm while berserk, he won't attempt to until either the weapon's power cell is fully discharged (all of them, if he can reload power cells "mindlessly") or there are no targets remaining in view. He'll probably drop the pistol to get up if it is empty, but might rise more slowly if it has shots remaining. His firing will be All-Out Attacks where he is attempting to discharge as many shots as possible. Once he's on the move, he'll probably retain the pistol even once it's empty. Much like Hit Girl in Kickass, the only use he'll put the empty pistol to will be as a rock, either to throw at an opponent he's closing with, or as something to hit his opponent with, as he "pistol whips" his opponent into oblivion.

It may not be RAW, but it seems to be both a reasonable possibility and consistent with the intent of the rules.

* It seems unlikely that that particular qualification constitutes a large pool of people on the forum.

[Witchking]

Berserker goes all the way back to 1st ed playtest. I have no idea how much attention it has gotten in the various edition modifications and updates.

IMHO not sure it 'integrates' very well post TL 5-6.

[Pursuivant]

It's not RAW, but I've seen house rules for Berserk gunmen which allow them to AoA with their weapon until it's empty. They can then roll to see if they can immediately ready another ready ranged weapon and use it until its out of ammo. Only once they're out of ranged weapons which they can use on an "instinctive" level do they charge.

Again, not RAW, but it seems entirely appropriate for a Berserk character to stand up and charge to close to melee/unarmed combat range.