Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

[Icelander]

In GURPS terms, would one treat the KAC LAMG as a rifle with a heavy barrel or a machine gun, for the purposes of the overheating rules in High-Tech?

It's a deriative of the Stoner 86, itself a deriative of the Stoner 63, but I don't know if any changes are game-mechanically significant.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There are enough resources involved so that the weapons can be bought new, well-maintained and worked on by a skilled gunsmith. Basically, Fine (Reliable) modifications will be made if possible and the shotguns will hopefully be high quality to start with.

Faster burning powders are something that I was wondering about. The PCs might have shotguns with barrels ranging from 6.5" to 18.5" and it would help if the ammunition for the concealable backup weapons were optimized for shorter barrels.

They could certainly do this, as their weapons would handle the increased pressures. Sensible loadings would probably not show any performance differences at GURPS' level of resolution (though in real life they'd be more pleasant to fire, with less flash, and have slightly higher performance in a short barrel than a normal load). 'High power' loads would work as HT describes, and could be assumed to be the use of faster burning powders, rather than more of a slow powder.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

They could certainly do this, as their weapons would handle the increased pressures. Sensible loadings would probably not show any performance differences at GURPS' level of resolution (though in real life they'd be more pleasant to fire, with less flash, and have slightly higher performance in a short barrel than a normal load). 'High power' loads would work as HT describes, and could be assumed to be the use of faster burning powders, rather than more of a slow powder.

There is one PC who will use a TL6 SxS 10-gauge shotgun (NID Magnum Double) and a TL5 LeMat pistol with its 18-gauge smoothbore barrel. He wants to load both with hot loads designed for the short barrels, extra-fine black powder for the cap-and-ball LeMat and fast-burning reloading powder for the cut-down shotgun.

Fortunately for the PC, both weapons will semi-permanently be under the effects of the Strengthen Weapon ritual from 'The Old Ways' in Pyramid #3/56, making them more-or-less impervious to damage resulting from even harsh abuse of the weapon (the ritual can make flint weapons immune to special rules for breakage, so ignoring safe pressure limits for older firearms is well within the effects envelope).

With Path of Energy recoil reduction and the PC being 6'6", 300 lbs. and extremely blasé about heavy recoil, there is no need to stick to sane loadings. Hence, an over 2 ounce shot load and an almost 1,500 grain slug load for the 3.5" 10G shells.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I set my new campaign in the modern day and allowed the PCs to have a billionaire Patron, hold positions as Reserve Deputy Sheriffs, own firearm trusts and belong to a Private Security Contractor with associated Class III dealers, so the PCs would have top-of-the-line modern firepower for their monster hunting.

Only for all the PCs to take spellcasting ability (which in a Dresden Files -esque way interferes with high-tech stuff) and the most modern firearms chosen to be a bolt-action rifle (A-Square Hannibal .577 Tyrannosaur) and a pump shotgun (Kel-Tec KSG-25). ...

So, instead of custom-made big bore ARs, compact .50 BMG rifles and semi-automatic .338 Lapua Magnums, it'll be 12G slugs and maybe the occasional 750 grain .577 Tyranosaur bullet.

Rounds like the .600 Nitro Express were also available at the beginning of the 20th century: apparently Tommy found them helpful for bagging Jerry snipers in steel shelters. So if anyone needs a gun for dinosaur and can handle the penalty for TL 6 equipment ...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Rounds like the .600 Nitro Express were also available at the beginning of the 20th century: apparently Tommy found them helpful for bagging Jerry snipers in steel shelters. So if anyone needs a gun for dinosaur and can handle the penalty for TL 6 equipment ...

With Signature Gear and Named Possession, the penalty for TL6 gear would be below game resolution. As, indeed, the built-at TL8, uses TL6 design and no technology not possible at TL6, A-Square Hannibal mostly comes out.

Plus, the same player used old-school elephant rifles in the last monster hunter campaign he was a part of. I guess he was trying to update...

My suggestion for Signature Gear was a FN-FAL (iconic African mercenary weapon) or perhaps a similar accurized military rifle in 7.62x51mm/.308 Win that his character would have been likely to obtain at some point between leaving the Foreign Legion around 1986 and disappearing in the Bermuda Triangle nine years later. After all, his character was working as a mercenary, for all that he was only working for one client, i.e. J.R. Kessler, the PCs' Patron. And he wanted to specialize as a sharpshooter, rather than a CQB assaulter or heavy weapons man.

It was when he asked how big the bore of a sharpshooter rifle could reasonably be that things gravitated to the A-Square Hannibal. I pointed out that there were more modern weapon designs with far better ballistics being built at that time, but, it was the name, I fear. He just couldn't resist a round actually named the Tyrannosaur.

[Icelander]

The PCs will be working with former SOF operators who belong to Caribbean-based Private Security Companies, but actually work as close protection and personal security for preternatural experts, as well as literal troubleshooters for supernatural trouble.

Unlike the PCs, these men will not be ritual magicians and thus not afraid to use modern technology, lest it interfere with mana flow or some such mumbo-jumbo. In fact, they'll need modern technology to make up for the fact that no amount of training, experience and expertise can change the fact that there exist monsters that are faster, stronger and fiercer than any human, and that they themselves are squishy and good with ketchup.

Their eccentric Patron has many ways, legal and less so, to arrange for military weaponry to be available to them. Through offshore holdings, he owns PSCs registered in the US and several Caribbean islands. More than one employee holds a Class III FFL and the Patron outright owns a custom gun store in Galveston, which according to the paperwork sells a lot of fancy weapons to US citizens buying on behalf of Caribbean-based PSCs. The Patron also seems to have good contacts within Knight's Armament Corporation and the Texas-based Quarter Circle 10. Added to that, expert legal assistance with setting up a firearms trust in Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama or Florida is available free of charge to qualified employees.

Furthermore, some employees have positions as Reserve Deputy Sheriffs in Jefferson County, Texas, where the Patron has been extremely generous in donating equipment to the SWAT team, in fact, so generous that the full-time officers do not miss the occasional item which a part-time officer might have on long-term requisition and/or have taken in for repairs. It helps, of course, that the Sergeant in charge of the armoury also has a lucrative 'consultant' contract for one of the Patron's many companies.

Less legally, the Patron seems to have extensive contacts and tendrils of influence with understanding members of Caribbean law enforcement, particularily in small rural areas on the tiny islands where an accomodating official might sign all sorts of documents in exchange for minor fiduciary considerations. Generally, Caribbean PSCs are not allowed to possess such exclusively military weapons as fully-automatic rifles, machine guns, grenades and explosives (except in Jamaica, where automatic firearms are fine, but destructive devices remain illegal). However, with demonstrated need and the ability to offer a brighter future for the children of underpaid officials, special licenses, valid within their jurisdictions, might be granted.

So, given that the fire team of former SOF badasses that the PCs will be assigned to will probably have done their best to secure access to the best available werewolf-slaying, Chthulu-killing munitions, what modern firearms that haven't been mentioned in this thread should the NPC allies be packing, to wow and impress the less technologically sophisticated PCs?

What manufacturers of modern weapons will sell their LE/Military weapons to dubious PSCs, offshore risk-managment firms and individuals with the appropriate licenses, but no demonstrated need other than having fun at the range?

As I understand US gun legislation and the realities of the market there, the right licenses can allow one the theoretical right to own 'silencers', machine guns, SBRs, SBSs and AOWs, but a) Individual states might restrict certain weapons or weapon features, b) License or no license, 'machine guns' made after 1986 are unavailable. This rule is slightly elastic, however, as legally only the receiver is registered as a 'machine gun', meaning that as long as the receiver is, say, from a pre-ban M16, the rest of the weapon can be any new parts compatible with AR-15 receivers, which covers a whole lot, c) Laws restricting importation of various foreign firearms unless they have a clear sporting use remain in force and have passed Constitutional muster, which means that unless a firearm with various PC-desired features is legally 'made in the USA', it may be impossible to obtain even for those with every hard-to-get dealer license and NFA tax stamps, and d) Some gun companies, both US and other, either refuse to sell their LE/Military models to private citizens (even those with appropriate licenses) or have backlogs of orders from governmental customers so long that they effectively can't sell any such weapons to civilians.

For the larger gun companies, a small PSC based on some Caribbean island is such a small customer that they are effectively treated as ordinary consumers and receive no special treatment. If something is a hassle, they'll simply not do it. For small companies making custom firearms, still trying to break into the lucrative world of mass government contracts, an order for a couple of dozen carbines, a lot of ammo and maybe a few LMGs might actually be worth pursuing, even if it requires obtaining export licenses and selling to a decidedly odd outfit.

So, does anyone know what models of fancy firearms will be both available and desirable?

Is the KAC LAMG the only option for squad automatic weapon?

What are the odds of getting automatic weapons in .450 Bushmaster or 45 Raptor?

Would SIG Sauer or the US-based SIG Arms be able and willing to sell them NFA-controlled firearms like the smallest versions of the SIG MCX (ideally in a selective fire version) or the FN-SCAR?

What are some really cool new monster-hunting weapons?

[(E)]

There may be loopholes in (the quite complex) maritime law that allow correctly flagged craft to carry weapons that would otherwise be illegal on land (and in national waters).

[Edit] A Kord 6P50 out of Nigeria maybe...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by (E)

There may be loopholes in (the quite complex) maritime law that allow correctly flagged craft to carry weapons that would otherwise be illegal on land (and in national waters).

Indeed so.

Also, regardless of legality, once the PCs' Pafron has obtained the some military weaponry, even if it was done by having a friendly law enforcement official on St. Lucia purchase a number of weapons for a local SWAT team and then 'accidentally' record fewer weapons in the inventory, it is always possible to carry weapons ilegally. At sea, it is exceedingly unlikely that anyone will board them to inspect a private yacht, especially with judicious use of influence and maybe a strategic use of a Path of Mind ritual, if absolutely necessary.

The challenge is to obtain the weapons. You can't very well bribe or ritually befuddle the mind of the right person to assist you if all the interaction you have with a big corporation that manufactures your desired LE/Military firearms is a polite email telling you that your proposed order is not sufficiently large to justify the administrative overhead of doing due diligence on the relevant regulations for your small Caribbean island.

Smaller concerns that make NFA-controlled firearms are more promising, as are, of course, shenanigans where you make arrangments with a government official with the wherewithal to obtain legitimate end-user certificates and have him order more weapons than he really requires and sell the balance to you, under the table.

It works for real for cartels in Mexico, so it seems viable for a fictional criminal enterprise (but one with lily-white Monster Hunting goals) to do on Caribbean islands and maybe even in African or Asian countries where individuals happen to have contacts.

Originally Posted by (E)

[Edit] A Kord 6P50 out of Nigeria maybe...

Yes!

I like that. Russian-made machine guns sound like just what the shoggoth ordered.

[adm]

I suspect, given your listed resources, that there is no effective limit on what weapons they may have available, although there can be many they do not want to get caught with. Most of a weapon can be assembled from off the shelf parts, with just a few legally limited parts, i.e. the receiver. Given the shop and gunsmiths listed, they ought to be able to produce hard to acquire parts from a block of metal. Given the spell ability mentioned, getting noticed for having the bits is unlikely, particularity with sufficient paper work.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by adm

I suspect, given your listed resources, that there is no effective limit on what weapons they may have available, although there can be many they do not want to get caught with. Most of a weapon can be assembled from off the shelf parts, with just a few legally limited parts, i.e. the receiver. Given the shop and gunsmiths listed, they ought to be able to produce hard to acquire parts from a block of metal. Given the spell ability mentioned, getting noticed for having the bits is unlikely, particularity with sufficient paper work.

Well, I suppose that in theory, J.R. Kessler could indeed acquire a specimen of almost any individual smallarm made at TL8. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he will. While neither cheap nor prone to pennifogging accounting, Kessler didn't become a bilionaire by spending $50,000 for items that work just as well as $10,000 ones, apart from having a logo that appealed to someone.

In the context of firearms, if a US-made weapon that can be acquired legally and fairly simply provides the same tactical capability as an imported weapon that requires an elaborate scheme involving bribed officials in more than one country, fake end-user certificates and clandestine importation, with risks and 'administrative' costs at every step, Kessler will inform his employee that he can either accept the US-made weapon or worry about an elaborate scheme to import its exact equivalent from Belgium, Germany, Switzerland on his own damn self.

For example, any weapon that can be made by gunsmithing an AR-15 or AR-10 rifle will rarely be practical to source in any other fashion than simply buying them in the nearest gun store (or ordering from the factory) and adding the necessary accessories.

That being said, there are tactical requirements which more or less cannot be met simply, legally and economically. Machine guns and squad automatic weapons are probably one such role, although, the KAC LAMG can use a lot of AR-15 parts and might therefore be a possible solution.

The location of the buffer tubes in the stock of AR pattern fifearms means that folding or fully retractable stocks are not possible without a major redesign (proprietary examples exist, no US-made ones appear very commercially successful).* This is a major hassle for covert transportation and carrying of Short-Barrelled-Rifles, significant enough so that obtaining weapons like the FN-SCAR or SIG MCX, even through convoluted and expensive schemes, might actually be worthwhile.

Edit: Actually, the FN SCAR rifles are made in South Carolina and I've found conclusive evidence that at least since 2015, SIG MCX carbines, at least if meant for the US market, are made in New Hampshire. So it actually depends on the willingness of FN and SIG Arms to sell their LE/Military firearms to either a PSC or a Sheriff's Office in Texas, in either case a minuscule order on the scale of such huge corporations so not worth much hassle. I think I'll have a few FN SCAR rifles available, with acquisition of properly set up SIG MCX carbines being an ongoing project, not currently completed.

Unless, of course, some forumites can suggest legally US-made carbine designs where the buffer tubes are not located in the stock, making it possible to easily mount a folding stock. I'm aware that most 7.62x39mm rifles and carbines that legally count as US-made will work for this role, and that is certainly an option, but it would have to be a modernized version with furniture allowing easy mounting of accessories. The possibility of rechambering in .300Blackout or .450 Bushmaster would be neat, but not necesarily all that practical with a Soviet Bloc design.

More powerful machine guns are another question and it might very well be that sourcing modern Russian .50 cal MGs through an understanding government official in Namibia or another country buying military hardware from Russia is the best option.

*The Law Tactical Folding Stock Adapter is a partial fix and, indeed, some AR-pattern firearms that the PCs and NPCs have access to have Gen 3 versions of them mounted. Nonetheless, the fact that the weapon cannot be fired with the stock folded is a significant point against it and some operators dislike its perceived 'makeshift' nature. For the role of Low-Visibility Carbine, a weapon no bigger than an AAC 'Honey Badger' or SIG MCX 'Black Mamba' would be desired, i.e. around 16"-18" with the stock folded and suppressor not mounted.