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Old 06-05-2022, 02:48 PM   #31
Rupert
 
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

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Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
Although being not that rare as metal element, lead was extracted in way lesser quantities than clay, so it was almost surely more expensive, and is was (it is) a serious toxic hazard for workers and smiths involved in its processing. Making a certain amount of lead glandes would likely require less time than making the same amount of clay slingshots because lead doesn't need to be dried for days and days under the Sun, and for some reason baked clay slingshots weren't that common.
Drying time isn't really relevant unless you need the 'stones' right away, and as they were made in very large numbers that doesn't seem like a huge problem as long as the area you're in has a season of consistent dry weather (and even if it doesn't, you can dry them under cover, it just takes longer).

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IMO, rectangular and roundish stone slingshots, pebbles and round clay ammo should have the base Damage, Accuracy and Range for the sling.
Unshaped stones and pebbles should be considered of Low Quality, but they have virtually no cost, being available almost everywhere.

Biconical and ovoid stone slingshots and clay slingshots should give +20% Range and +1 Accuracy.

Lead glandes should give +1 damage, +60% Range and +1 Accuracy. They are more expensive than biconical/ovoid stone and clay ammo of the same weight. Bronze glandes were also used, although very rarely: they were in use in Cyprus during the very end of the Late Bronze Age. They would have pretty much the same stats of lead glandes, but with a better resistance to both atmospherical and mechanical sollecitations (treat as HT 14) and having a much higher cost.
Aside from differing range adjustments, and the shaped stone/glandes being the default, this is what Low-Tech does.
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Old 06-05-2022, 09:07 PM   #32
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

"Baked clay" means that they were fired (in a fire), not dried in the sun. If they were just dried in the sun, there would be no trace of them today. You don't need a furnace or kiln. I've made them in a camp fire - a camp fire gets plenty hot enough to make terracotta.
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Old 06-05-2022, 09:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

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Drying time isn't really relevant unless you need the 'stones' right away, and as they were made in very large numbers that doesn't seem like a huge problem as long as the area you're in has a season of consistent dry weather (and even if it doesn't, you can dry them under cover, it just takes longer).


Aside from differing range adjustments, and the shaped stone/glandes being the default, this is what Low-Tech does.
Shaped stone slingshot was very common and it makes sense for it to be the GURPS default. In the Vimicanium amphitheatre (Serbia), they recovered 126 made from limestone, 5 from sandstone, 2 from terracotta (baked clay), and none from lead.
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Old 06-06-2022, 04:27 AM   #34
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

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"Baked clay" means that they were fired (in a fire), not dried in the sun. If they were just dried in the sun, there would be no trace of them today. You don't need a furnace or kiln. I've made them in a camp fire - a camp fire gets plenty hot enough to make terracotta.
Sun-drying was the standard method of manifacturing clay slingshot in Egypt and in the Ancient Near East. The vast majority of clay slingshots recovered from there were sun-dried, not baked in fire. Although much more deperible than baked clay, sun-dried clay could be preserved for millennia under the right conditions. A lot of cuneiform tablets are made of sun-dried clay as well.
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

Some were fired. Some were sun dried. In many instances it can't be determined (e.g. they were found on a site that had been burnt). Some were used while still wet and not dried at all. Some were initially identified as sling shot and later determined to be otherwise.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Near_East#pf50
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Old 06-07-2022, 12:08 AM   #36
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

Low Tech - yup.
Saves a lot of bother, no arguments about how precisely incorrect your "House Rules" are and it have it all covered.
Maybe not precisely how I want it but it's in a GURPS book.

I keep doing this kind of thing - cracking up over minutiae, burning daylight figuring out crazy ideas, annoying everyone with dumb questions, being alt-English adds to the confusion.
And, in the long run, GURPS has it covered in a Gamable way. It's as if I need to hit my head against a wall just to be sure it hurts.
Love the forum.
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Old 06-07-2022, 05:58 AM   #37
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Some were fired. Some were sun dried. In many instances it can't be determined (e.g. they were found on a site that had been burnt). Some were used while still wet and not dried at all. Some were initially identified as sling shot and later determined to be otherwise.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...Near_East#pf50
I specifically mentioned Egypt and Ancient Near East as regions where sun-dried clay was more common than baked clay, not only to make slingshots and clay tablets but also to make bricks as well. Baked clay slingshots, tablets and bricks were known and used, but in a much smaller scale than their sun-dried equivalents. The main reason for this is probably an economic one: in a hot and dry climate is just more practical to let dry vast amounts of clay under the Sun rather than consuming a lot of fuel and efforts in order to bake them right. If you need some clay shots for hunting purposes, then a campfire already used to cook your meal is sufficient, but this is surely not sufficient for producing baked slingshots on a much larger scale. Baked clay slingshots became a more common thing in the Near East during the Roman-Sasanian period, but without supplanting their unbaked cousins.


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Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
Low Tech - yup.
Saves a lot of bother, no arguments about how precisely incorrect your "House Rules" are and it have it all covered.
Maybe not precisely how I want it but it's in a GURPS book.

I keep doing this kind of thing - cracking up over minutiae, burning daylight figuring out crazy ideas, annoying everyone with dumb questions, being alt-English adds to the confusion.
And, in the long run, GURPS has it covered in a Gamable way. It's as if I need to hit my head against a wall just to be sure it hurts.
Love the forum.
Forum intervents are just personal opinions. And in GURPS you can choose what rules use and what grade of detail having in your campaigns, including HRs as well. To me, Low-Tech is an amazing work, but of course is a compromise between strict realism and gameability. Slings in Low-Tech have a much shorter range than their real counterparts (only x6/x10, that's why in my HR I've setted the standard range to x10/x15) and in Low-Tech there isn't that much difference in using properly shaped biconical and ovoid slingshots or using unshaped pebbles.
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Old 06-07-2022, 06:40 AM   #38
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

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Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
Forum intervents are just personal opinions. And in GURPS you can choose what rules use and what grade of detail having in your campaigns, including HRs as well. To me, Low-Tech is an amazing work, but of course is a compromise between strict realism and gameability. Slings in Low-Tech have a much shorter range than their real counterparts (only x6/x10, that's why in my HR I've setted the standard range to x10/x15) and in Low-Tech there isn't that much difference in using properly shaped biconical and ovoid slingshots or using unshaped pebbles.
-1 to Hit for unimproved stones is actually a fairly significant penalty, and a bigger difference than your suggested one (+1 ACC, +20% range).
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Old 06-07-2022, 06:45 AM   #39
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

That newspaper item, the "44magnum" thing - I'd not be surprised to find that they misquoted, that is, I can believe the archaeologist compared it to a 44 pistol round and it got changed to 44 Magnum!
44 calibre - 0.05lb bullet...
Sw+1 pi, ST14, 44 Special...
Should it be pi+?
Can you sling 0.09lb bullets just as well? For pi++?
Oh no, I'm thinking again
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Old 06-07-2022, 07:38 AM   #40
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Default Re: (Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

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That newspaper item, the "44magnum" thing - I'd not be surprised to find that they misquoted, that is, I can believe the archaeologist compared it to a 44 pistol round and it got changed to 44 Magnum!
It's still at best comparable in momentum, in kinetic energy (and therefore GURPS damage) any lethal pistol round is going be an order or two of magnitude greater. 456 J for 200 gr HP, in this case.
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