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Old 02-01-2019, 04:01 AM   #91
Michele
 
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazis Across the Multiverse

- The Westerners would have been less prepared if attacked in September 1939, yes. The same applies to the Germans. They did strengthen their forces in those months, too. Just to mention one detail, attacking West in 1939 would mean that the Eben-Emael coup would not have been planned, and that the paratroopers would have had just five combat-ready battalions, meaning that the quick conquest of Holland would not have taken place. The result is a German attack that takes a month to cross the Lowlands, in time for the fall rains to bog the panzers down.

- It's absolutely unlikely that the Soviets would have immediately invaded Eastern Poland if the Germans had struck West. Stalin would have waited to see who was winning, before coming down the fence. Thus, the Poles would have attacked Germany and Eastern Prussia in particular, with no hindrance from the USSR.

- As to the German submarines engaging the Western fleets in September 1939 instead of in May 1940... that's what they did in actual history, of course. They weren't the only German naval assets out, either.
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Old 02-01-2019, 04:53 AM   #92
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazis Across the Multiverse

To maintain a civilization, you need a wide variety of experts and a great diversity of infrastructure. So, let us say that you bring 30,000 tons of late TL6 goods (I am not sure that Germany had 30,000 tons of early TL7 goods remaining in 1945). Of the 30,000 tons of goods, the majority is probably going to be agricultural equipment or else they will be practicing TL5 agricultural (tractors, diesel fuel for the tractors, machine shops to maintain the tractors, spare parts for the tractors, etc.). Of the rest, how much are you going to allocate to electrical generators and diesel fuel for the generators, mill equipment to produce the thread for sewing machines and the sewing machines themselves, etc.?

Civilizations are capable of maintaining themselves because they are the human and physical infrastructure to do so. Without either, they break down fairly quickly. Without both, well, stored supplies only last so long.
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Old 02-01-2019, 05:00 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Based on what?

You realize that a lot of real societies have supported TL4 and higher with lower populations and only fairly limited tonnage of trade with others? 30,000 short tons of finished TL7 goods represents a lot more than the GDP of Iceland for a very long time in the 19th century and we were still TL5 in places. 30,000 short tons could be GURPS $1,000,000,000+ of TL7 goods and tools to make more. Each settler is bringing many orders of magnitude the capital assets that homesteaders brought into the American frontier, where they still managed to use TL5 skills and even reach TL6 eventually. And yes, they got trade goods from back East and elsewhere, but it's not like the typical 19th century homesteader was getting expensive, finished technological devices by the ton.
Places like 19th century Iceland and the American west did not have First Industrial Revolution technology without trade with places with large, concentrated populations and with resources which are scattered around the world (coal, rubber, teak, different types of iron ore) and require heavy, specialized industries to exploit. So around 1900, anything 'industrial' or 'educational' on the west coast of North America (like cast-iron beams and pillars 4 metres long or a four-year degree in drawing and painting) required a trip to San Francisco or overseas. Isolate a million people on a continent and you get paleolithic technology.

Exploiting these resources scattered around the world requires local populations and a lot of specialized knowledge which can only be learned from experience of the specific local conditions (eg. getting good use of a given kind of iron ore requires a folk theory and lots of experimentation and practice, historically the theory of metals developed by philosophers and men of science was almost totally irrelevant to production).
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Old 02-01-2019, 05:13 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
To maintain a civilization, you need a wide variety of experts and a great diversity of infrastructure. So, let us say that you bring 30,000 tons of late TL6 goods (I am not sure that Germany had 30,000 tons of early TL7 goods remaining in 1945). Of the 30,000 tons of goods, the majority is probably going to be agricultural equipment or else they will be practicing TL5 agricultural (tractors, diesel fuel for the tractors, machine shops to maintain the tractors, spare parts for the tractors, etc.). Of the rest, how much are you going to allocate to electrical generators and diesel fuel for the generators, mill equipment to produce the thread for sewing machines and the sewing machines themselves, etc.?

Civilizations are capable of maintaining themselves because they are the human and physical infrastructure to do so. Without either, they break down fairly quickly. Without both, well, stored supplies only last so long.
Why would they bring tractors?

They accept that they'll be using animal and slave power for their agriculture. They have TL7 knowledge, chemicals and all the small knick-nacks that make life comfortable, but they know that bringing heavy industry over is impractical. For small arms, it's simply vital to their national interest that they do so anyway, but for almost anything else, they brought what they needed to make a lower-tech existence comfortable and to allow them to build up a sustainable industrial base, but accepted that they would not be able to use modern TL7 methods for much of anything.

In any case, with 100,000 hectares of already cleared, already seeded, extremely fertile farmland just waiting for them around their initial settlement, they don't need more than animal power. After all, they can grow a lot more food than they need within walking distance of everyone's home. Hell, at the time they arrive, in the beginning of May, there are orchards already starting to bloom, onions and various garden vegetables ready for the first harvest and the main crop harvest is in less than six month. The animals are fattening and the streams and water teem with fish.

And the ideal farmland in the magical demiplane where most of their food production will happen, at least until the population gets big enough so that they need farms on other worlds as well, will keep growing slowly, without any clearing necessary. In 50 years, it's grown by 500,000 hectares.

I'll grant that clearing the vast forests of Germania Hyperborea to make good farmland will be a huge undertaking without many tractors and internal combustion vehicles, but, hey, that's why they have literally hundreds of thousands of perfectly obedient slaves who don't need food and will work tirelessly around the clock, each as strong as a powerful athlete.
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Old 02-01-2019, 05:31 AM   #95
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Places like 19th century Iceland and the American west did not have First Industrial Revolution technology without trade with places with large, concentrated populations and with resources which are scattered around the world (coal, rubber, teak, different types of iron ore) and require heavy, specialized industries to exploit. So around 1900, anything 'industrial' or 'educational' on the west coast of North America (like cast-iron beams and pillars 4 metres long or a four-year degree in drawing and painting) required a trip to San Francisco or overseas. Isolate a million people on a continent and you get paleolithic technology.

Exploiting these resources scattered around the world requires local populations and a lot of specialized knowledge which can only be learned from experience of the specific local conditions (eg. getting good use of a given kind of iron ore requires a folk theory and lots of experimentation and practice, historically the theory of metals developed by philosophers and men of science was almost totally irrelevant to production).
In this case, however, the elite class has TL7 knowledge and had two years to plan how to preserve it and teach it to new generations. All citizens still get an education that is as close to TL6 and TL7 education as possible, even if they only learn about trains, airplanes and automobiles from books.

As the elite class were the massively powerful inner circle of the SS in Nazi Germany, even during the last two years of its existence, they still had access to stupendous resources, especially once they started becoming more willing to flat-out break the law and loot the Reich in order to prepare the Last Redoubt better.

As noted, they brought 30,000 short tons of tools, equipment, libraries of technical books and völkisch literature (and everything else they could get their hands on) and everything they thought would be needed to be able to maintain eternal warfare with small units with personal TL6-7 firearms, build up a new industrial base at the highest practical level possible (not TL7, certainly, but able to mantain some TL7 gear at very high cost) and build power plants. Also, to eventually build zeppelins to explore other worlds.

During the two years they prepared their escape, studies were done on where important resources were found and how to extract them with technology they could maintain. Civil engineers, mining engineers and mechanical engineers already had a year or two of preparation for the specific mines, power plants and factories they set up on Jötunheim. Not to mention that finding resources to exploit is a lot easier with access to RPM magic and a few powerful magi on your side.

Granted, the Antarctic Space Nazis start out with only a few real magi, but developing more becomes a huge priority, obviously. And you don't need very many people with access to RPM to be able to get a lot of very valuable information, like where to find certain minerals, how much of them there is and, even, with some refinement of the rituals, more or less exactly what kind of obstacles there are to exploiting them. The magic can't do mass manufacturing very well and it's limited by some odd rules that govern what kind of mega-projects are practical, so their industrial infrastructure is nearly exclusively technological, but when it comes to knowing where to dig and what to avoid, divination magic is hard to beat.

Thousands of German experts in 1943-1945 who were not part of the chosen people to escape the ruin of the Reich nevertheless did design work for the 'geared-down', lower-tech infrastructure designed with TL7 principles that the Antarctic Space Nazis would build in their new homes, without knowing what the SS was going to do with their designs. So when the ASNs arrived in their new homes, a few hundred engineers and highly skilled technicians had already been there for over a year, working on the infrastructure needed to get a running start. And with thousands of Kadavergehorsam stormtroopers who don't eat*, get bored or ever stop wanting to kill things, there was plenty of security to maintain order among slave laborers, even at the earliest stages.

Note also that while World 1, the idealized demiplane where the center of their power is located, was entirely empty of people when they settled, there is no reason to assume that World 2, Germania Hyperborea, doesn't have a worldwide population of maybe 200 million TL0 to TL3 natives, although even after fifty years, the ASNs have hardly penetrated into areas that are far from the three gates they've found that open into that world.

*Well, I don't want to give the wrong impression. They do consume energy, which they use to perform work. It's just that the process doesn't necessarily have to biological and even when it is, they certainly do not eat anything that ordinary people would regard as food. At least, willingly. Let's just say that while there is endemic warfare and a steady stream of slaves, many of whom do not meet the stringent requirements to become a valued member of ASN society, free or unfree, they will find enough to eat. Also, as ASN industry evolves, they can drain power directly from power plants and sustain themselves that way.
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Old 02-01-2019, 09:05 AM   #96
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30,000 tons is not a lot of supplies for a TL6 group of 50,000 people (I would hesitate to call the Germans TL7, as the only TL7 products of German society at the end of WW II would have had would have been early TL7 military equipment). I think that vast majority of the Germand would have been TL6 with only a few dozen engineers and scientists with TL7.
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Old 02-01-2019, 09:27 AM   #97
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazis Across the Multiverse

I suspect that the question is less how can the ASN maintain TL7, but how long can they maintain it. With their stockpile and planning ahead, fifty years would likely see little loss in TL. After a century or so I suspect that the TL will start to drop.
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Old 02-01-2019, 10:49 AM   #98
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I suspect that the question is less how can the ASN maintain TL7, but how long can they maintain it. With their stockpile and planning ahead, fifty years would likely see little loss in TL. After a century or so I suspect that the TL will start to drop.
That's a very good point.

Conversely, after fifty years, they've expanded the territory they control and their population base massively. Sure, most of their people only see anything higher TL than TL5 in connection with military service or work for one of the large industrial corporations, and the majority of the farming population is living pretty much as farmers did from TL2 to TL5, with only better knowledge and better quality hand tools to distunguish themselves from the 'primitive natives', but still, their population is around 4 million and growing fast.

And while only the ca 2,000,000 free citizens get comprehensive state-funded education in TL6 and TL7 concepts until they are eighteen, note that some half a million slaves of favored racial stock are being educated to become citizens eventually, which includes not only indoctrination in völkisch philosophy and Irminschaft theology, but practically speaking the equivalent of a typical TL6 education (i.e. the curriculum covered by the compulsory part of education, ca from age 6-12, in pre-War Germany, adapted for their current practical conditions) plus several years of vocational training according to aptitude.

The Antarctic Space Nazis are of the opinion that a woman's place is in the home, producing and rearing children, but they've defined positions in the educational system as extensions of this duty, as nursing is perceived. The result is that almost every woman who works is involved on some level with the massive system of indoctrination and education.

Even slaves, if they are clever and valuable slaves, are taught fairly complex TL5 and TL6 technical tasks and slaves working in the industrial sites on Jötunheim often learn to read at company expense, simply because they need to learn so much technical data that it is the most practical way to make them valuable workers. This is starting to have important social ramifications, as chattel slavery is pretty incompatible with a literate, educated, technologically adept work force.

And the emerging industrial centers of Jötunheim have a far lower percentage of ideologically committed Nazis than the fanatical SS settlement around Wahr Wewelsburg on World 1, with vital technical expertise having excused merely lukewarm enthusiasm for the Party when the initial selection for the settlers was made. As a result, there are informal movements toward greater egalitarianism on Jötunheim, so far mostly expressed in how the rules are interpreted and enforced, rather than any criticism of the ruling regime.

The fact is, for work merely requiring strong backs, the ASNs have the 200,000 Kadavergehorsam slave workers, unquestionably obedient, strong as powerful athletes and literally idefatiguable (but without initiative, creativity or the ability to learn anything complex). They really need their 'ordinary' slaves in the industrial centers to be at least as technologically adept as TL5 factory workers and they rely on slaves for a great deal of TL6 skilled labour. The slaves, in turn, know that their treatment relies on being seen as valuable and that some of the technocrats of Jöturnheim are even willing to fudge racial classification for particularly willing, bright and technologically adept slaves, perhaps enabling them to eventually attain citizenship.

As most of the slaves look more or less 'European', the racial classifications are more than usually arbitrary, often assigning a racial category based on the perceived culture the original slave was seized from (quasi-Celt like cultures didn't rate eventual citizenship, quasi-Germanic ones did) and most of the 'non-Aryan' ones who grow up in the Neues Reich and speak German look more or less like many ordinary Germans from Earth. Privately, a number of technocrats and succesful industrialists in Jötunheim would like to see slavery phased out and some even want the franchise extended. Certainly, brilliant technicians who happen to be born non-Aryan slaves at some of the most successful and innovative firms actually have lifestyles that are far superior to many free people at historical TL5 and even TL6.

All this means that there are already millions of people working with TL5 and TL6 technology in the Neues Reich by Year 51 and there are hundreds of thousands working to maintain TL7 equipment and trying to make more. For all that the ASNs still war with their neighbours and seize slaves at alarming rates, they nevertheless do carry out all kinds of official and unofficial trade with the millions of TL3 natives. Indeed, at least one culture of natives, which has been involved in several bitter wars with the ASNs (but have their largest population centers so far from where the ASNs live it's not worth the effort to destroy their settlements), are doing their best to become TL4 in the way that Native American adopted settler technology long before being subjugated.

And over the World Tree, the ASNs trade with their allies in Svartàlfrheim. These started out as less than a million of TL3 people who had previously lived in splendid isolation, actually slowly regressing from a TL3+1^ magitek culture of vast complexity to a caste-bound TL3^ one with highly skilled craftsmen and magi, but no innovation or social change. Contact with the ASNs has shattered their isolation and they are now attempting to do as the Japanese did during the Meiji Restoration. As a start, they've conquered vast swathes of territory on their home world with ASN support and now rule as the five million strong conqueror race over a subjugated population of some twenty millions.

The ASNs are willing to sell their allies any TL4 technology desired and even, for hefty prices, teach them how to set up their own manufacturing for the simpler things. They'll sell TL5 technology as well and while they don't offer to help their allies close the technological gap completely, the ASN leadership has privately accepted the risks of these allies reaching full TL5 in the not too distant future and found it acceptable, as their trade is so very valuable once they've been taught to find sought-after resources like coal, petrochemicals, mineral wealth and raw materials for all sorts of industry.

Basically, by Year 100, the ASNs aim to have the numbers, infrastructure, resources and trading agreements to sustain true TL7 again. At the very least mature TL6 with the capability for TL7 in vital fields of industry. Then Nazi science can once more start sneering at all sorts of obstacles.

After all, by that time the Nazis aim to number fifty million or more (the planned minimum population is 25 million citizens and 25 million slaves by Year 100) and they'll have a TL5^-ish ally numbering 50-100 million. And they mean to be extracting resources from dozens of worlds by that time.
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Old 02-01-2019, 11:22 AM   #99
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30,000 tons is not a lot of supplies for a TL6 group of 50,000 people
It is when these are expensive finished goods, tools and parts for assembly lines, chemical precursors and other high value high-tech useful for jump starting industry, as well as retaining TL7 small unit capabilities. Food, raw materials and anything else that is available on their new worlds is not included.

Indeed, even the animal breeding stock they brought from Earth (because they had access to larger and superior animals than found at TL2 or TL3) was not included in this figure, as this was merely what was carried through. While it might have been a chore to arrange, the animals walked under their own power to their new homes.

The miraculous demiplane full of idealized Westphalian farmland that spontaneously sprang into existence in 1944 mean that the early groups of experts sent to prepare for the settlers had more than enough to eat and that the first harvests will be enough to feed everyone who settles, even without bringing food over.

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(I would hesitate to call the Germans TL7, as the only TL7 products of German society at the end of WW II would have had would have been early TL7 military equipment). I think that vast majority of the Germand would have been TL6 with only a few dozen engineers and scientists with TL7.
Eh, Germany was making hundreds of thousands of mature TL7 rifles and building a lot of advanced TL7 rockets and other hardware. That's the flashy stuff, but really, pretty much all sides of the war were using recognisably more advanced technology in very many fields than was true at the heyday of classic TL6, i.e. around 1900-1914.

Note also that a lot of the iconic WWII logistics and military hardware is TL7. The iconic TL6 war is WWI, where a lot of the concepts that were later devoloped into widespread TL7 technology were tried, but did not make it into 'general use', the mark of a higher TL. 1940 is used as the benchmark for TL7 not because the first TL7 technologies appeared then, but because that was the point at which enough TL7 technology had been widely adopted to fundamentally change society.

In the transitional Interbellum years, there were scientists and engineers working with Cutting-Edge Training Perks in various specialities, but by 1940 or so, millions of ordinary mechanical engineers and technicians are working with TL7 concepts as part of mass-manufacturing, not merely as secretive R&D.

That being said, the leaders of the ASN were the ones overseeing many of the most advanced Wunderwaffen R&D projects of the Third Reich, not to mention many of them controlling the cutting edge in German manufacturing, civil engineering and other fields. The SS were involved in a lot of the highest TL stuff being done in Germany and even if not all of the scientists were devoted Nazis, several hundred highly educated, skilled and experienced experts in varying fields were part of the initial settlers. And, of course, copies of all the research, scholarly work and valuable information were among the supplies sent to the Last Redoubt (some on paper, some on microfilm).
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Old 02-01-2019, 02:41 PM   #100
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Default Re: Antarctic Space Nazis Across the Multiverse

Compared to the interstellar colony-in-a-box scenario, the ASN have a much clearer idea of the conditions they'll be arriving in and have the ability to try things out in the new environment and modify their plans and the equipment they bring accordingly. Their drawback is that they're TL6-7, as opposed to a much higher TL for any plausible interstellar scenario.
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Irminschaft theology
Have they found somewhere where Irminism is actually practiced, or have they had to recreate it from surviving sources in their original world? A recreated religion definitely risks being emotionally unsatisfying or otherwise failing to propagate. Is there an Externsteine in any of the worlds they use?

One thing that's clear, the ASNs that your PCs are going to meet won't be working off a normal Western or European cultural familiarity. In two generations of isolation, with a different religion and a lot of slave-killing, they'll have ended up with a distinctive culture.
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