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Old 09-05-2015, 08:20 AM   #11
GWJ
 
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

You should simply use DX to hit, if there is better. And Karate only to parries and Karate techniques, at "first level".

And one year of traning is VERY low amount in this case. I assume that we talking about >combat<, not Dojo sparring or tournament fights. One year of training give most increases in confidence and physical attributes (but too low increase to qualify for +1 ST in GURPS, toooo low...). And to demonstrate your techniques for show :)

Oh and there is mentioned in Martial Arts book, that untrained individuals are attacking only with All-Out Attack, and defending only with All-Out Defense. And can't Feinting. This is IMO biiig bonus for trained fighters vs. untrained.

Last edited by GWJ; 09-05-2015 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

I like the solution of eliminating DX-based unarmed combat and imposing a default for all unarmed combat including brawling. I think it tracks reality pretty well to suppose that a truly untrained person attacks mostly with Telegraphic and/or All-out attacks. Not a lot of parrying or dodging going on in the average bar or school fight.

However, I also have a somewhat generous view of skill acquisition, so I'd be ok with giving e.g. the average high-school football player who has been in a couple of scraps a point in Brawling. Not everyone you see fighting on Youtube is completely untrained in Gurps terms.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not View Post
A scrap with DX-2 characters might be a hilarious affair.
You can often see very similar things in pub carparks - or, these days, on YouTube, usually called things like "fight fail".
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:46 AM   #14
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

DX-4? So with AoA (Determined) and Telegraphic Attack, this will be DX+4. How average untrained person can punch someone in the face with effective skill 9?

I think solution is easy - use the best combat skill ;) If your DX is better than your Karate, you should use DX to hit, not Karate, unless you want some Karate techniques...

In this case, 1 point in Karate make you as good as untrained, PLUS better parries, and ability to perform Karate techniques - though you too green yet, to perform them on opponent's other than kids.
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Old 09-05-2015, 08:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
And face it, 1 point is *very much* a beginning student. This isn't "intensive training" in a year, it's slightly preferred hobby. Intensive *starts* somewhere above a full time job - 2000 hours a year.
And yet people argue constantly that a college education is only just few points total. So a college education equivalent would still be pretty useless.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:06 AM   #16
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
And yet people argue constantly that a college education is only just few points total. So a college education equivalent would still be pretty useless.
I've never seen anybody serious argue a college education is just a *few* points. Most degrees come to about 2000 hours of actual classroom time, plus some non-trivial amount of outside studying. Admittedly some people would argue a lot of those points should probably go toward buying a +1 IQ and not skills.

Anyway new college graduates usually aren't in the running for people who have been through intensive training either.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:07 AM   #17
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

IMO this looks like:
* 1 pt in Karate:
DX+0 to hit
Parry with DX: 8, or 9 with Retreat
Parry with Karate: 7, or 10 with Retreat, TWICE per turn
Parry with DX vs weapons: 5, or 6 with Retreat
Parry with Karate vs weapons: 7, or 10 with Retreat, TWICE per turn
You can use Karate techniques, probably with Telegraphic Attack or AoA.

You are MUCH better in defense, and no better in offense (in real fight with average opponent, so techniques are rather "finishers" than arsenal).

* 2 pts in Karate

Same as above, but, you have little less penalties in performing Karate techniques, maybe sometimes you will use them in real fight without AoA/TA

* 4 pts in Karate
Still DX+0 to hit
Higher levels with techniques
+1 dmg per die
Parry with Karate: 8, od 11 with Retreat, twice per round, vs weapon or not.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:12 AM   #18
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

Remember to use the higher of DX or skill. Going by the Basic Set alone, doing all the math to express things relative to DX (drop fractions at the very end!), and putting the benefits of Karate in boldface, the real progression is this:
0 points (DX only): Punch at DX for thrust-1; kick at DX-2 for thrust; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at full skill; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 4 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2, or DX/2 + 1 if retreating; cannot attempt Back Kick, Elbow Strike, Jump Kick, Knee Strike.

1 point (Karate at DX-2): Punch at DX for thrust-1; kick at DX-2 for thrust; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at skill-4; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 5 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2 + 2, or DX/2 + 5 if retreating; Back Kick at DX-6, Elbow Strike at DX-4, Jump Kick at DX-6, Knee Strike at DX-3.

2 points (Karate at DX-1): Punch at DX for thrust-1; kick at DX-2 for thrust; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at skill-4; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 5.5 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2 + 2.5, or DX/2 + 5.5 if retreating; Back Kick at DX-5, Elbow Strike at DX-3, Jump Kick at DX-5, Knee Strike at DX-2.

4 points (Karate at DX): Punch at DX for thrust; kick at DX-2 for thrust+1; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at skill-4; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 6 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2 + 3, or DX/2 + 6 if retreating; Back Kick at DX-4, Elbow Strike at DX-2, Jump Kick at DX-4, Knee Strike at DX-1.

8 points (Karate at DX+1): Punch at DX+1 for thrust+1; kick at DX-1 for thrust+2; armed enemies who parry your unarmed strikes attack your limb at skill-4; parry unarmed attacks at DX/2 + 3.5, or DX/2 + 6.5 if retreating; parry weapons at DX/2 + 3.5, or DX/2 + 6.5 if retreating; Back Kick at DX-3, Elbow Strike at DX-1, Jump Kick at DX-3, Knee Strike at DX.
Adding in the Martial Arts rules gives you a bunch more techniques (almost none of which default to untrained DX). You also get to parry with the legs or feet, and may parry grappling techniques with "counters" that don't require a free hand. And you can dive, sideslip, and slip as well as or better than an untrained person can retreat.

The benefits are subtle but real at low levels.
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Old 09-05-2015, 10:19 AM   #19
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

Four hours a week is crap all. If you're serious about your martial arts training, you do at least an hour of practice daily - at home or at your school. Plus lessons.

If you just show up at class and go home, you're taking aerobics classes and probably learning Karate Sport.

This is speaking as someone who just showed up at class and went home. :) It was fitness training, good cardio. Also good for my general flexibility and mental health. That's not points in Karate.
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Old 09-05-2015, 11:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: On the uselessness of a karate course in GURPS

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
And face it, 1 point is *very much* a beginning student. This isn't "intensive training" in a year, it's slightly preferred hobby. Intensive *starts* somewhere above a full time job - 2000 hours a year.
For another example, a year of training twice a week is about the same as signing up to a two-semester evening course and taking it reasonably seriously (3-4 hours in class, 6-8 on reading and studying and practice and assignments, over 26 weeks plus a bit of cramming for the exam).

There are intensive courses for self-defense which seem to get results in less hours, like the pistol course which Fairbairn and Sykes worked out for the Shanghai Municipal Police Department, but they rarely look like a traditional group class, and 'effective' does not necessarily mean 'high skill' as much as "not trying to default from Weapon Art-3, and not crippled by mental disadvantages and freezing."
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