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Old 07-02-2021, 06:50 AM   #1
Grayscale
 
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Default [UT] [HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

I'm trying to design a 15mm Gyroc (6d pi++) combined with the White Phosphorous warhead option from High-Tech (HT172) - I understand the rules mention 20 mm as the minimum caliber, but I'm choosing to overlook this.

So, HT says:
Quote:
...Add a (0.5) armor divisor and a follow-up burning explosion with burning fragmentation. Hot fragments (p. B415) do 1d(0.2) burn every 10 seconds for a minute...
But what is the burning explosion damage?

6d? That would result in a 12 yd blast radius - contrast that to the HEC option from UT (which I'm also using) that for a 15mm Gyroc results in 2d cr ex and so a 4 yd blast radius.
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Old 07-02-2021, 06:58 AM   #2
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

I believe there are WP munitions statted out in HT (grenades mostly, but maybe some warheads as well), so I'd say compare those to comparably-sized HE munitions to see how UT WP would likely compare to UT HE.
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Old 07-02-2021, 07:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

Looking at the WP warheads detailed in High-Tech, 1d and a 5-yard burst would be generous for a 15mm warhead.

Damage has nothing to do with the projectile's base (kinetic energy based) damage, and is all about how much WP it can carry. A 120mm mortar round does 6d, 42-yards. A 60mm mortar does 2d, 15-yards. A WP grenade doesn't have any explosion damage, just a 5-yard burst.

You could have a 15mm WP round just do the WP burning damage to the target as a follow-up attack. Having the WP deep inside would make it very hard to remove, so that's a 'free' 6d burning damage, though over a long time period (in terms of GURPS combat).
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Old 07-02-2021, 07:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I believe there are WP munitions statted out in HT (grenades mostly, but maybe some warheads as well), so I'd say compare those to comparably-sized HE munitions to see how UT WP would likely compare to UT HE.
I'll try and find those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Looking at the WP warheads detailed in High-Tech, 1d and a 5-yard burst would be generous for a 15mm warhead.
Quote:
You could have a 15mm WP round just do the WP burning damage to the target as a follow-up attack. Having the WP deep inside would make it very hard to remove, so that's a 'free' 6d burning damage, though over a long time period (in terms of GURPS combat).
That's an interesting idea and not something I had thought of. Still, the intended effect is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiQoN1-Ks6Q

Quote:
A WP grenade doesn't have any explosion damage, just a 5-yard burst.
I suppose this makes sense, so we would end up with 6d pi++ linked [1d(0.2) burn]. Does actually look like the scene I linked above.
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Old 07-02-2021, 08:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

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Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
I suppose this makes sense, so we would end up with 6d pi++ linked [1d(0.2) burn]. Does actually look like the scene I linked above.
According to HT it should have (0.5) penetration, and I'd say it's a follow-up, not a linked attack (HT also thinks that). Thus: 6d(0.5) pi++ follow-up [1d(0.2) burn]

Remember that if a an attack with a follow-up doesn't penetrate, you get the effect of a linked attack.
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Old 07-02-2021, 08:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

HT does not list the damage because when it was created, it's creators were told 'no design systems'. That's why a lot of the ammo options in the book actually have no rules to apply them to something like AKM or Glock, as it would have to run off of calculating damage for caliber size, rather than projectile energy output.

I wanna say one thing though. All the smoke grenade 40mm etc have one thing in common - their normal HEAT/Penetrative damage etc is replaced with the one for Baton round (HT168), so reasonably your WP projectile would not deal it's full 6d pi++ dice and instead look something like...

1d+1 (0.5) cr
Follow-Up
1d [1d(0.2)] burn ex

This is in line with 40mm Smoke Grenades for something like M203, since WP is in effect a very spicy smoke that takes up majority of the projectile, leaving only a shell.

Incendiary or tracer bullets would be more effective...
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Last edited by MrFix; 07-02-2021 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 07-02-2021, 09:13 AM   #7
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
HT does not list the damage because when it was created, it's creators were told 'no design systems'. That's why a lot of the ammo options in the book actually have no rules to apply them to something like AKM or Glock, as it would have to run off of calculating damage for caliber size, rather than projectile energy output.

I wanna say one thing though. All the smoke grenade 40mm etc have one thing in common - their normal HEAT/Penetrative damage etc is replaced with the one for Baton round (HT168), so reasonably your WP projectile would not deal it's full 6d pi++ dice and instead look something like...

1d+1 (0.5) cr
Follow-Up
1d [1d(0.2)] burn ex
This looks good too. I think I'll go with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Incendiary or tracer bullets would be more effective...
But those wouldn't have an "area of effect" capability, would they?
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Old 07-02-2021, 09:29 AM   #8
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

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Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
This looks good too. I think I'll go with it.



But those wouldn't have an "area of effect" capability, would they?
True true, I am as always hasty with my judgements. 1d explosion is the strength of a punch, so wearing at least bare minimum protection or a very good torso vest will negate it. 1d(0.2) burn ex means that burning shrapnel flies out to 5 yards - effectively a 5 yard burning smoke cloud. It probably doesn't stick to clothes, though they may catch fire incidentally.

B433 states that one needs at least 3 damage to set some clothing on fire (1d-3 burning per second, -2 to DX), at least 10 damage to set all clothing on fire (1d-1 burning per second, -3 DX) and at least 30 to set flesh on fire.

Rules on B415 on hot fragments state that hot fragments attack everyone once per 10 seconds. I do not know if that means one can stay in the cloud for 9 seconds and only suffer 1 damage dice roll.

Rules on B433 state that if you're on fire, you take 1d-1 burning damage. More serious sources of fire inflict 3d burn per second. There's no information on what kind of fire a WP cloud is, if any.

(0.2) divisor means that entities with 0 DR gain 1 DR post divisor.

Verdict: 5-yard locale where you have about 30% (2.5 damage average) chance to catch your clothes on fire if hot fragments hit (they can miss!). It is unknown if the locale itself inflicts fire damage for staying inside. While certainly interesting for inner city gang warfare, shooting an enemy dead is more productive, imho. Since PCs and, by extension, enemies love to cover themselves in full reflex bodysuits in UT games, I find it to be not very useful there. Average Reflex Suit would have 20 DR against it (4/0.2=20)
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Old 07-02-2021, 11:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
True true, I am as always hasty with my judgements. 1d explosion is the strength of a punch, so wearing at least bare minimum protection or a very good torso vest will negate it. 1d(0.2) burn ex means that burning shrapnel flies out to 5 yards - effectively a 5 yard burning smoke cloud. It probably doesn't stick to clothes, though they may catch fire incidentally.

B433 states that one needs at least 3 damage to set some clothing on fire (1d-3 burning per second, -2 to DX), at least 10 damage to set all clothing on fire (1d-1 burning per second, -3 DX) and at least 30 to set flesh on fire.

Rules on B415 on hot fragments state that hot fragments attack everyone once per 10 seconds. I do not know if that means one can stay in the cloud for 9 seconds and only suffer 1 damage dice roll.

Rules on B433 state that if you're on fire, you take 1d-1 burning damage. More serious sources of fire inflict 3d burn per second. There's no information on what kind of fire a WP cloud is, if any.

(0.2) divisor means that entities with 0 DR gain 1 DR post divisor.

Verdict: 5-yard locale where you have about 30% (2.5 damage average) chance to catch your clothes on fire if hot fragments hit (they can miss!). It is unknown if the locale itself inflicts fire damage for staying inside. While certainly interesting for inner city gang warfare, shooting an enemy dead is more productive, imho. Since PCs and, by extension, enemies love to cover themselves in full reflex bodysuits in UT games, I find it to be not very useful there. Average Reflex Suit would have 20 DR against it (4/0.2=20)
Good assessment. WP seem a tad anemic, at least when compared to the video source material - even when considering unarmored foes. I'd prefer at least a 50% chance of setting clothes on fire.
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Old 07-02-2021, 01:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: [UT][HT] 15mm Gyroc White Phosphorus

15mm payload rounds are generally quite marginal. It's a rather small caliber for such things.
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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Rules on B415 on hot fragments state that hot fragments attack everyone once per 10 seconds. I do not know if that means one can stay in the cloud for 9 seconds and only suffer 1 damage dice roll.
I think you've wildly misinterpreted this.

Hot fragments do cyclic damage to people they've hit, they don't make repeated fragmentation attacks, and the fragments cause the smoke cloud, not the other way around. HT172 provides rules for removing such fragments, which generously assume that the fragments will be in a position to be brushed off rather than needing to be extracted.

The effects of the smoke cloud itself are summarized as "Add the effects of smoke." EDIT: Presumably you could get burned if you wind up in contact with a WP fragment that's lying where it landed after the original burst, but unless you're immobile you'd usually just get back off it right away. Just being in the smoke wouldn't be like being in fire, though the fragments could start a fire in flammable surroundings of course.
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