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Old 05-03-2021, 09:34 PM   #61
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
The thing is one must ask why does GURPS have this reputation for being complicated? Is it really the rules or perhaps they way they are organized?
Or is it, as propounded in this thread, because we MAKE it complicated?

Most characters should be about as complicated as Dai Blackthorn. A few might be more complicated, but he's a good baseline. That's why he's the example character generation.

Most exotic advantages and disadvantages should be tucked away in racial templates. Most characters don't need to apply eleventeen modifiers to their traits. If you're running a game that heavily involves powers, you'll be an exception (and you'll want GURPS Powers), but you shouldn't assume that everyone else wants that same level of complication.

Spells don't need to be equal in power to advantages, or to match their capabilities, or to cost equal character points. They're just skills, abilities you learn. You learn how to point at a candle and cause it to burst into flame. You learn how to touch a patient and cure him. You learn the magic formula for turning yourself invisible. They don't need to be "balanced" against advantages any more than the Broadsword or Knot-Tying or Esoteric Medicine skills need to be balanced against advantages. And if you think the Force Dome spell breaks the game, remove it! No one in your world knows it, no one in your world teaches it. And you can use other magic systems if you prefer, that's fine, but you don't have to convince others to abandon the system given in the Basic Set and at the core of the main magic supplement.

Wealth and Cost of Living don't simulate an economy. They're just how GURPS sets how much cash you have, what kind of job you can get, what your lifestyle is like, and how much money you need every month to support that lifestyle. You don't need to rationalize where the money comes from or account for every object you own.

You don't have to optimize your character points if you don't want to. You don't have to convince anyone exactly what TL(1+7) means or whether magical societies have TL^ technologies. You don't have to allow the expanded Cosmic enhancement from Powers if you're not using Powers. You don't have to do this stuff in GURPS.

It's us. We are the ones making this complicated. GURPS has a lot of detail, but the details are not as complicated as we're making them.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:34 PM   #62
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
The thing is one must ask why does GURPS have this reputation for being complicated? Is it really the rules or perhaps they way they are organized?
It's because it really is a very complicated RPG. The fact that there are a couple of simple tools in the box doesn't make it easy to sell a whole chest of tools to a person who only wants a shifting spanner.
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Old 05-03-2021, 10:30 PM   #63
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

I disagree. I started a Pathfinder campaign for some friends (all first-time rpg-ers), and they all lamented limits on skill use, unrealistic combat, levels, and a few other things, which prompted me to suggest we try GURPS instead. After three sessions of my intro campaign, everyone had a grasp of the rules, started tinkering with characters, and and had a lot more fun customizěng their PCs and trying crazy stunts. The secret is in how difficult you make it, and whether you approach it as a fun RPG, or a "reality simulator" full of calculations.
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Old 05-03-2021, 11:47 PM   #64
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Sorry I'm late to this discussion.

The negative impact of discussion of GURPS in various social media forums on the player base is saddening to hear. The current status of GURPS as a product line for SJGames is sobering. The impact of the former on the later is galling to say the least.

I suppose I should do my bit and go purchase Christopher's latest offering...

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Entirely correct. Stargate SG-1, X-Com, but also a bit of Old Man's War...
Sounds awesome.
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Old 05-03-2021, 11:54 PM   #65
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Purple Snit View Post
.. The secret is in how difficult you make it, and whether you approach it as a fun RPG, or a "reality simulator" full of calculations.
For some strange reason, this reminds me of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Barbossa
...The code is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:44 AM   #66
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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So then, which major virtual tabletop(s) has SJGames gone all-in on for GURPS?
This is the key. I suspect that even after the pandemic, a lot (or even most!) RPG gaming will be done online. GURPS would benefit immensely from automated tools.

If you could easily start a Dungeon Fantasy RPG campaign with an sexy VTT with officially supported adventures, only lack of marketing would stop growth.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:23 AM   #67
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by Magic_Octopus View Post
This is the key. I suspect that even after the pandemic, a lot (or even most!) RPG gaming will be done online. GURPS would benefit immensely from automated tools.

If you could easily start a Dungeon Fantasy RPG campaign with an sexy VTT with officially supported adventures, only lack of marketing would stop growth.
This is probably my single biggest issue with how GURPS is handled. The GURPS Roll20 sheet is a good example. I believe they had to roll back a bunch of automation work they'd done because the online policy forbids it.

I'm working on a GURPS framework myself for FoundryVTT, and yet only those in my immediate group will be able to get any use out of it because I'm automating the hell out of everything.

Allowing more comprehensive VTT integration would go a long way to making GURPS more accessible to players. My Foundry framework is actually a port/upgrade of what I had on Maptool, where I had combat consolidated down to three buttons. Attack > Defend > Damage. But I never released it because it's against the online policy. (And also performance was terrible, but the switch to Foundry is resolving that)
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:53 AM   #68
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Stop telling people why you think the magic system is broken. Stop telling people that Powers (or Martial Arts, or Thaumatology) is kind of really the third book in the Basic Set that everyone really should buy. Stop telling people who express interest in GURPS to buy ten thousand books just in case they're interested in one little part of it.
GURPS could probably use a 5th Edition with some reorganization of books at this point, but it doesn't sound like the money or personel is there for that project.

My initial thought for a potential 5th Edition is to split the core books into Basic, Campaigns and Advanced. Basic would be the majority of Characters, but without Enhancements and Limitations (those go in Advanced along with some of the more detailed stuff from Campaigns). I would instead add chapters on Action, Martial Arts and Supers the same way there's currently chapters on Magic and Psionics. Campaigns would focus more on making and running a campaign and less on rules for calculating exact numbers (those go in Advanced). I would also have chapters for settings other than Infinite Worlds, as while that setting says "You can do anything" it can also feel like "You must do/allow everything".
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:03 AM   #69
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
GURPS could probably use a 5th Edition with some reorganization of books at this point, but it doesn't sound like the money or personel is there for that project.

My initial thought for a potential 5th Edition is to split the core books into Basic, Campaigns and Advanced. Basic would be the majority of Characters, but without Enhancements and Limitations (those go in Advanced along with some of the more detailed stuff from Campaigns). I would instead add chapters on Action, Martial Arts and Supers the same way there's currently chapters on Magic and Psionics. Campaigns would focus more on making and running a campaign and less on rules for calculating exact numbers (those go in Advanced). I would also have chapters for settings other than Infinite Worlds, as while that setting says "You can do anything" it can also feel like "You must do/allow everything".
I disagree with that last part. I can't think of any player or GM that had that mentality and this comes from a mish mash of D&D, Morrow Project, Champions/Hero, and Call of Cthulhu.

Champions/Hero when I played it was insanely customizable and there was that period in AD&D2 where you could build your own class rules. But no one had that "You can do anything" means "You must do/allow everything"

Regarding the first part I think we are getting to a=n Classic GURPS problem but I think it could be fixed with more up to date errata or perhaps a Compendium. We aren't to need a new edition level. Far from it.
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Old 05-05-2021, 03:11 AM   #70
Willy
 
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Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

While I have to say that I HAVE my problems with 4 th Ed, it still is in itself mostly well balanced and much better than other game systems. Imho the problem is that it is 15 years old and faces the same problems as the old 3rd Ed. more and more options came into play and there is no compendium or collection of all this things. Everybody who wants to know how many spells, skills or advantedes and so on, are now there has to do it by himself or search fanpages, which is a heavy drawback and not very user friendly.

A new 5th Ed wouldn´t change that, in fact, while I would have done some decisions the other way, it may make things even more problematic, because how many good 3rd Ed. books are still neither available nor transfered into the current setting ? it would take years to bring all the 4th Ed. stuff into 5 th Ed, which would most probably not be rewarded with enough sales to justify this.

Last edited by Willy; 05-05-2021 at 03:11 AM. Reason: spelling error
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