Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2021, 06:34 AM   #81
JMason
 
JMason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Cockeysville, MD
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Benchmarking against reality and ensuring that the expected outcomes from using GURPS rules match what you'd expect from reality is what makes GURPS simpler to use with new players (or just players who don't care to learn rules) than any other RPG.

The players just make decisions based on what they'd do if they were really the character whose role they are taking on. They don't have to know any gamist terms, exploits that give bonuses or optimized DPS builds. They just describe what they do and because GURPS rules are meant to reflect reality, not be a game-mechanical construct unconnected to anything else, the GM can simply translate that into GURPS without the players ever needing to care about the mechanics.

Well put! This is something that I have struggled to convey to others over the years. Saying GURPS is realistic makes people think that the game is a complex simulation. I switched to saying GURPS is believable or GURPS "makes sense", but those still don't quite get the point across.
__________________
---
My Blog: Dice and Discourse - My adventures in GURPS and thoughts on table top RPGs.
JMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 06:54 AM   #82
Kesendeja
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

I don't know if it would help bring in new players or not, but part of D&D success is the open gaming license. Maybe GURPS could try that? Let fans publish and slightly profit from creating unofficial settings and supplements for the game.

Either have them posted on a separate part of Warehouse 23 or some other site. An outside site might be good though, increase the chances of an impulse buy if someone's already on DriveThruRPG.
__________________
My GURPS Blog: https://omniversalmess.blogspot.com/
Kesendeja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 07:27 AM   #83
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesendeja View Post
I don't know if it would help bring in new players or not, but part of D&D success is the open gaming license. Maybe GURPS could try that? Let fans publish and slightly profit from creating unofficial settings and supplements for the game.

Either have them posted on a separate part of Warehouse 23 or some other site. An outside site might be good though, increase the chances of an impulse buy if someone's already on DriveThruRPG.
This isn't something that SJGames is willing to consider because they don't want to dilute the quality of their brand or feel forced to either provide support for non-SJGames content or actively turn people away. That might not be all the exact right details, but it's the gist of it.
awesomenessofme1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 07:30 AM   #84
bocephus
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Snit View Post
Honestly, the best entry for new GURPS players is a GM who knows when to use a rule and when to keep the action rolling. If it's fun to play the game, and you only add the complexity you need to keep things moving (so no detailed martial arts unless you have wuxia fans for players, or no Gun-fu unless you're playing an appropriate genre,....

I haven't yet had a complaint of "it's too complicated" (though I did have one of "it's too lethal", which it can be). ....

Honestly, most players will never need to know or use that level of detail. And it puts people off (and not just new players...). It's supposed to be fun, not work.
I sorta cherry picked your quote but I agree with what your saying.

I have said it may times. There a a lot of rules that you don't need to use to play GURPS, but it does take time & experience to learn which rules those are.

I have only had one player to date that has genuinely wanted to use the Full basic rules for combat. Once we did two combats even he admitted that as much as he loved the detail, we got nothing else done in the session and realized why I streamline combat and casting to what would probably be considered barely cinematic levels.

I agree with the few that have said that there are a few holes that could make a beginning GMs job easier. For me I think that is a Bestiary, but I can see where others might also advocate for smaller prepackaged adventures, and a collection of more PCs/NPCs spanning a few basic genres and point levels.

I understand that there are a lot of things that SJG has to factor in when deciding where to invest time and resources. It just that the more recent choices don't seem to really resonate with my needs.
bocephus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 12:42 PM   #85
WingedKagouti
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Snit View Post
Honestly, the best entry for new GURPS players is a GM who knows when to use a rule and when to keep the action rolling.
It is unfortunate that there is a lack of such GMs compared to potential new players. A good GM can make any system work for a group of players, but it takes time and effort to learn how to be a good GM and even a book like "How to Be..." is not a substitute for actual experience and skill.
WingedKagouti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 01:35 PM   #86
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMason View Post
Well put! This is something that I have struggled to convey to others over the years. Saying GURPS is realistic makes people think that the game is a complex simulation. I switched to saying GURPS is believable or GURPS "makes sense", but those still don't quite get the point across.
Publishing hundreds and hundreds of pages of crunchy rules also makes people think that the game is a complex simulation.
__________________

Decay is inherent in all composite things.
Nod head. Get treat.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 02:53 PM   #87
Donny Brook
 
Donny Brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Snoopy's basement
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
In the fourth edition, you mostly don't have that problem. Books like Powers and Martial Arts are not required to play the game. Supplements like the Power-Ups series are not required. Rules found in Dungeon Fantasy are not required. The stuff you get in Pyramid is all very optional.

So when people say things like they have to search through fifteen years' worth of supplements to get all the rules they need, and this is therefore not newbie-friendly, they're wrong. No one needs to collect all the supplements to get all the rules. That was a third-edition problem, not a fourth-edition one. All you need is the Basic Set. Honestly. A supplement dealing with your desired campaign can be a great help, but no one outside of the scope of the supplement needs those rules.
I have to disagree. Just for example, the Basic Set is very thin when it comes to equipment, vehicles and wildlife. You need the supplements if you don't want to research all those things practically from the ground up. Another example is last week we had to use content from Powers, Power-ups 4, and Basic to figure out how to make a sword that increased a character's damage from his basic damage.

Diffusion is a natural outcome of how the materials get produced over time, but it has become an impediment. IMO GURPS desperately needs to rejuvenate its form-factor. Unfortunately, from Kromm's occasional remarks it seems like SJGames either lacks the money/resources to modernize, or has decided to just milk the GURPS line rather than invest in it. (And there is also the issue that changing the form-factor could gore the oxen of several writers who depend on a share of revenues from given books in their given form.)

IF SJGames had the money/willingness to invest, here is what I would advise:

1) Re-focus on GURPS' essential value proposition -- the ability to play any kind of genre or setting. This is key raison d'etre of the game, so SELL it and provide the tools (e.g. Vehicles design) and advice (indexing/linkage and how-to manuals) that make it work.

2) Differentiate -- stop chasing D&D's table scraps, find the second, third or fourth etc. most popular genres and OWN them.

3) Modernize -- books look good on a shelf, but who shops from shelves anymore? PDF volumes were a step forward, but they are 1990s tech. VTTs are the modern play tools, and living documents are the way complex information is accessed.

4) Leverage the fan base. Consciously and deliberately encourage open-source contributions to periferal parts of the GURPS body. Invite every purchaser at time of purchase into a nurtured community of creators and collaborators.

5) Streamline the form factor. This would mean changing what they are doing now (i.e. spreading editorial resources across piecemeal projects for small revenues). Stop making new content for the moment, go back to (3) (above) and reformat all the treasure trove of the existing content so it is accessible for new players and new modes of gaming.

6) Enliven the brand with partnerships. Find ways to make GURPS a generous bridge for substantial new creators who haven't yet bridged to grand-scale commercialization. Consider rebranding, keeping the link to GURPS but put a catchier name over the top ('powered by GURPS' is already a thing, so maybe riff on that like "Powered! by GURPS").

Will some of this cost money or defer cash flow? Yes.
Is it better than fading slowly into oblivion? Absolutely.
Does SJGames have the interest and ability to do it? I hope so.

Last edited by Donny Brook; 06-01-2022 at 07:51 AM.
Donny Brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 04:29 PM   #88
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I have to disagree. Just for example, the Basic Set is very when it comes to equipment, vehicles and wildlife. You need the supplements if you don't want to research all those things practically from the ground up.
In D&D, we were perfectly content to use the paltry equipment lists found in the rule book. Anything that wasn't on the list, we just made up. Same with Star Frontiers, though there was more to buy there. You don't need to do research if you don't want to. It's just a game. It's a detail whose realism will be forgotten in a mere moment, as soon as your attention is elsewhere.

In GURPS, if you say, "I want to buy a parachute," you don't HAVE to go to High-Tech for the item. The GM can say, "Okay, that's... mmm... $800." If you like detailed equipment lists, that's what the Tech books are for, but you don't need them.

Quote:
Another example is last week we had to use content from Powers, Power-ups 4, and Basic to figure out how to make a sword that increased a character's damage from his basic damage.
For a player-character build? What's wrong with Striking Strength with gadget limitations? Or a Puissance spell? Or just making up a new advantage (see pp. 117-118 of Characters)? You don't NEED those books. GURPS isn't an incomplete game without those books.

Again, if you like constructing detailed powers, then by all means use Powers and the Power-Up series. That's what they're for. But they're not required by everybody who plays GURPS, only that set who want detailed powers. And pushing them on newcomers who already feel overwhelmed by just the Basic Set is sure to send them running.
Stormcrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 05:12 PM   #89
Willy
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post

IF SJGames had the money/willingness to invest, here is what I would advise:

1) Re-focus on GURPS' essential value proposition -- the ability to play any kind of genre or setting. This is key raison d'etre of the game, so SELL it and provide the tools (e.g. Vehicles design) and advice (indexing/linkage and how-to manuals) that make it work.

2) Differentiate -- stop chasing D&D's table scraps, find the second, third or fourth etc. most popular genres and OWN them.

3) Modernize -- books look good on a shelf, but who shops from shelves anymore? PDF volumes were a step forward, but they are 1990s tech. VTTs are the modern play tools, and living documents are the way complex information is accessed.

4) Leverage the fan base. Consciously and deliberately encourage open-source contributions to periferal parts of the GURPS body. Invite every purchaser at time of purchase into a nurtured community of creators and collaborators.

5) Streamline the form factor. This would mean changing what they are doing now (i.e. spreading editorial resources across piecemeal projects for small revenues). Stop making new content for the moment, go back to (3) (above) and reformat all the treasure trove of the existing content so it is accessible for new players and new modes of gaming.

6) Enliven the brand with partnerships. Find ways to make GURPS a generous bridge for substantial new creators who haven't yet bridged to grand-scale commercialization. Consider rebranding, keeping the link to GURPS but put a catchier name over the top ('powered by GURPS' is already a thing, so maybe riff on that like "Powered! by GURPS").

Will some of this cost money or defer cash flow? Yes.
Is it better than fading slowly into oblivion? Absolutely.
Does SJGames have the interest and ability to do it? I hope so.
I would underwrite all the above, because the way SJG had handled GURPS for years now is like shooting yourself in the knee.

But most of this wellconsidered and good advice is completely against the opinion and brand strategy of SJG, as Steve showed and said ( again ) at the last Fnord con.

It is not the customers job to buy any products they are served, it is the sellers job to make products that sell good enough to make the business running. Saying the old base isnīt supporting GURPS anymore is in my eyes a sorry excuse.
The Kickstarter campaigns for GURPS were as long as Iīm taking part always a sure selfrunner so the market is there, and the base still willing to buy, IF the products are that what the buyers want which is the problem.

By the way some of the kickstarter items are still not in warehouse 23, is this a strategy to ensure players take part on Kickstarter, or do you plan to publish them piecemeal to have a steady stream of new products, is there a strategy behind this ? Because otherwise you deprive yourself of possible sales for no reason.
Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 08:39 PM   #90
Purple Snit
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Default Re: How to Be a GURPS GM: Managing Expectations

I'm not sure that arguing for products that customers want, while simultaneously saying you've supported the kickstarters (which must therefore contain products you want) really makes a point to why SJG should overhaul GURPS. Neither does arguing it's too complex while advocating a fifth edition that divides the game into genres. The original issue here is this; new players are scared off because they perceive that GURPS is more complicated than it is. The players on the forums feed that by arguing matters of bean-counting and hair-splitting, and so intimidate newcomers even more. The issue isn't "shouldn't SJG make a new game out of this to encourage new players", but rather "why can't current players be more welcoming to newbies and more encouraging of play without all the frills"!
Purple Snit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
how to be a gurps gm, managing expectations

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.