Dodge and Drop; can't be used vs. Melee why?

[Ubiquitous]

I just watched the 'Lost Planet 2' trailer and notice that in order to get out of the way of a large pincer right the hell now the protagonist(?) dives out of the way. But I'm led to believe that a Dodge and Drop can't be used in Melee combat (books aren't here, so I'm going off fellow players' advice).

Why can't it be used? It'd be a bit dramatic to do it in a brawl, but it would certainly help. And furthermore, before I look up the rule but I'm pretty sure it does, does Dodge and Drop put you in a different hex, or between hexes? Could a Drop n' Dodge followed by an Acrobatic Roll (or just attack Prone with penalties) set you up for a 'Run Around' Attack?

[Ulzgoroth]

I don't know the answer to your core question, but I should note that there's a minor error here. Martial Arts does permit a 'dodge and drop' (I think it calls it a dive) in melee combat. It's much less effective than a normal retreat or a Dodge and Drop vs. ranged attack, though.

[SuedodeuS]

Martial Arts allows one to use Dodge and Drop in melee, although the bonus is dropped to +2, making Retreat a better option in general. Dodge and Drop can also move where you are (an aspect used for Diving for Cover, from B377). You are best served by Retreating, unless the attack is considered an area attack, in which case you need to Dodge and Drop to avoid it.

EDIT: Just watched two trailers, neither of which had what you're talking about. If you're just referring to the ability to roll out of the way, that's probably just an Acrobatic Dodge.
Of course, you've just reminded me that I need to beat the first one. Got all the way to the final boss before my computer died on me (although I wasn't having much luck fighting him using the keyboard).

[Langy]

A dodge and drop is a terrible idea in melee combat. You might benefit somewhat from doing it against the specific attack you were dodging, but you wind up prone right next to the guy trying to kill you, in which case your attack and defense rolls are both penalized significantly. Other guy has the advantage and will cut you up.

[Ubiquitous]

Originally Posted by Langy

A dodge and drop is a terrible idea in melee combat. You might benefit somewhat from doing it against the specific attack you were dodging, but you wind up prone right next to the guy trying to kill you, in which case your attack and defense rolls are both penalized significantly. Other guy has the advantage and will cut you up.

Unless you have Acrobatic Stand, in which case it's a free +3 if you make the roll. Easy trade.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Unless you have Acrobatic Stand, in which case it's a free +3 if you make the roll. Easy trade.

+2, as I said earlier, and if there's more than one enemy (or you fail your check*), you end up in a very bad situation. Also, it isn't free - you are giving up a Retreat (a +3) and your next action, as even with Acrobatic Stand it takes a Change Posture maneuver to get to your feet (unless you critically succeed, of course).

*I recently gamed out an encounter between an acrobatic swordsman and a T-Rex. The deciding point in the fight was when the swordsman failed his Acrobatics 16 check (I rolled 17) and ended up being stepped on by the T-Rex. So, yeah, relying on Acrobatics can get you killed, regardless of your skill level.

[Ubiquitous]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

+2, as I said earlier, and if there's more than one enemy (or you fail your check*), you end up in a very bad situation. Also, it isn't free - you are giving up a Retreat (a +3) and your next action, as even with Acrobatic Stand it takes a Change Posture maneuver to get to your feet (unless you critically succeed, of course).

Originally Posted by Martial Arts pg.65

This represents training at quickly regaining your feet in a fight; see Acrobatic Stand (p.98) for details. A successful roll lets you go from lying down to standing as a single Change Posture maneuver; on a critical success, you do so as a “step.” Failure means you go to a sitting posture. Critical failure leaves you lying down, wasting your turn.

I was under the impression you could use it right after a dodge, hence its use.

Also, another enemy doesn't seem like such a big threat; I would imagine throwing yourself to the ground gives you the +2 for every attack that turn, not just against one foe as suggested. Regardless of RAW I find it highly presumptuous that the split-second an enemy has to react (since all turns take place in a second) is enough to compensate.

And I'd hardly consider leaping away to somersault 'just an Acrobatic Dodge'. That'd imply that moving 2-3 yards, half in a tight ball, is easier to hit than someone throwing themselves to the ground.

*I recently gamed out an encounter between an acrobatic swordsman and a T-Rex. The deciding point in the fight was when the swordsman failed his Acrobatics 16 check (I rolled 17) and ended up being stepped on by the T-Rex. So, yeah, relying on Acrobatics can get you killed, regardless of your skill level.

Bad rolls hardly bear thinking about; the only counter is possibly Luck. With logic like that I'd be better off not spending any points in skills since they were unreliable as opposed to Advantages, which give hard and fast results, even if most only contribute to skill-use.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

I was under the impression you could use it right after a dodge, hence its use.

Of course you can. But it takes an action to do so. Had you just Retreated, you could have used that maneuver to, say, Attack your enemy. As it stands (heh), you have to use the entire turn just getting on your feet.

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Also, another enemy doesn't seem like such a big threat; I would imagine throwing yourself to the ground gives you the +2 for every attack that turn, not just against one foe as suggested. Regardless of RAW I find it highly presumptuous that the split-second an enemy has to react (since all turns take place in a second) is enough to compensate.

You take a step toward somebody to swing an axe at his head. As you're taking the step, he splays himself out on the ground. Are you honestly saying you wouldn't be able to compensate? Because I'm fairly confident I would be able to.

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

And I'd hardly consider leaping away to somersault 'just an Acrobatic Dodge'. That'd imply that moving 2-3 yards, half in a tight ball, is easier to hit than someone throwing themselves to the ground.

A quick roll that moves 1 yard is a Retreating Acrobatic Dodge. A leaping somersault that moves 2-3 yards away is an All Out Defense: Increased Dodge, possibly combined with a Retreating Dodge that may or may not be Acrobatic. It isn't a Dodge and Drop - namely because you don't drop.

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Bad rolls hardly bear thinking about; the only counter is possibly Luck. With logic like that I'd be better off not spending any points in skills since they were unreliable as opposed to Advantages, which give hard and fast results, even if most only contribute to skill-use.

Bad rolls simply mean you shouldn't always rely on something. "Dodge and Drop is always a good idea because I can always stand up as a Step on my turn, thanks to my Acrobatic Stand 26" is untrue, because you always run the risk of failing (even critically failing) that roll. "Fighting these goblins will be cakewalk thanks to my Retreating Acrobatic Dodge of 16" is similarly untrue, because all it takes is one bad roll to give you a very bad day. Bad rolls should always be kept in mind, because **** happens - and the more you can do to keep said **** off of you (not going prone every other combat round, killing those goblins from a distance or bringing a competent healer with you, etc), the better.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

I was under the impression you could use it right after a dodge, hence its use.

You can use it any time you can take a Change Posture maneuver.

Which usually will not be right after a dodge, but rather on your next turn after a dodge.

[Ubiquitous]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

You take a step toward somebody to swing an axe at his head. As you're taking the step, he splays himself out on the ground. Are you honestly saying you wouldn't be able to compensate? Because I'm fairly confident I would be able to.

Well, the thing is, you probably aren't. Mechanic-wise, the +2 to Dodge, being negated, means that to bust that you've gotta take a -4 to your skill for a Deceptive Attack, plus whatever the new penalty is for raking a prone guy. How it would look in real-life is when you went to swing, he dropped. Maybe I'm too unfamiliar with axe-combat to see how you'd correct, but I think if someone dropped totally down the best I could do would be lower my hit maybe three feet, which I don't think'd connect. No offense meant about your ability with an axe but if the scenario is saying that it's dodge-enhancing to 'sprawl out', what difference does it make if you sprawled against one guy and not a bunch of others. How do you sprawl just for one guy and not a bunch of others?

A quick roll that moves 1 yard is a Retreating Acrobatic Dodge. A leaping somersault that moves 2-3 yards away is an All Out Defense: Increased Dodge, possibly combined with a Retreating Dodge that may or may not be Acrobatic. It isn't a Dodge and Drop - namely because you don't drop.

You do, then get back up. The 'drop' in this case is just formality but originally I thought it was a case of Acrobatic Stand. By saying Retreating Acrobatic Dodge, does that mean you're collecting +3 Dodge from a Retreat and +1 from an Acrobatics success?

Bad rolls simply mean you shouldn't always rely on something. "Dodge and Drop is always a good idea because I can always stand up as a Step on my turn, thanks to my Acrobatic Stand 26" is untrue, because you always run the risk of failing (even critically failing) that roll. "Fighting these goblins will be cakewalk thanks to my Retreating Acrobatic Dodge of 16" is similarly untrue, because all it takes is one bad roll to give you a very bad day. Bad rolls should always be kept in mind, because **** happens - and the more you can do to keep said **** off of you (not going prone every other combat round, killing those goblins from a distance or bringing a competent healer with you, etc), the better.

I don't think I ever said anywhere that this all beared relying heavily upon. I'm familiar with playing encounters tactically (or whatever the word is) and using range and cover and the environment, whatever'll help, to my advantage. But this example is covering one specific thing, and not relying heavily on what'll probably be your best skill (16 in a 150-point game, that's not out-of-the-question right) because 'you might get a bad roll' just doesn't seem right to me; it could happen with anything, Skill 8 to Skill 80, it just isn't critical past 16.