TK and Telegraphing attacks...

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by The Benj

No.

Do you have a source for this as definitive? JC

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Yes. You get +4 to hit, the target gets +2 to defend against you if they're getting a defense against you (which is possible)

What does this look like? Why is it easier to defend against?

No.

Source?

[Gudiomen]

Rules absences asside, I have to agree with Ze'... it's silly to think that the target is far far away, but just as easy to target. He's much smaller in your visual field, and all his "bits" aren't as readily targetable as before.

You take range penalties to see things, why would you not take them to hit things?

Do you really think it's as easy to pick a lock with your eye a palm's distance from it and with the lock 200 yards away from you? The non use of ranged penalties in TK would generate exactly that situation.

[Mathulhu]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Rules absences asside, I have to agree with Ze'... it's silly to think that the target is far far away, but just as easy to target. He's much smaller in your visual field, and all his "bits" aren't as readily targetable as before.

You take range penalties to see things, why would you not take them to hit things?

Do you really think it's as easy to pick a lock with your eye a palm's distance from it and with the lock 200 yards away from you? The non use of ranged penalties in TK would generate exactly that situation.

unless the TK has a force feedback effect, but that is covered by another power Clair-touch. Ooh that might be useful.



A member of the "stuff" takes range penalties choir.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Rules absences asside, I have to agree with Ze'... it's silly to think that the target is far far away, but just as easy to target. He's much smaller in your visual field, and all his "bits" aren't as readily targetable as before.

You take range penalties to see things, why would you not take them to hit things?

Because the hits aren't coming from you, far from the target. They're coming from your TK, close to the target.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

Do you really think it's as easy to pick a lock with your eye a palm's distance from it and with the lock 200 yards away from you? The non use of ranged penalties in TK would generate exactly that situation.

I don't think you can pick a lock numb, unless you've got something that lets you see inside the lock while you're working on it. If you can't either feel what you're doing or see what you're doing, I don't care whether you're inside the lock or 200 yards away, you can't do it.

A range penalty doesn't really cover the issue. Either you can tell what's going on in the lock or you can't. And if you can, I see no problem with picking it 200 yards away via TK.

[Gudiomen]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Because the hits aren't coming from you, far from the target. They're coming from your TK, close to the target.

But you are directing it. You have the skill to hit, not the hands. That's like saying that you can fight blind-folded at no penalty because the hits aren't coming from your eyes, they're coming from your hands.

A range penalty doesn't really cover the issue. Either you can tell what's going on in the lock or you can't. And if you can, I see no problem with picking it 200 yards away via TK.

And I argue that unless you have remote vision as well, you must take range penalties. Scratch the lockpicking example then, use any other fine motor skills that rely on eye-hand coordination. Like drawing. Can you draw without a penalty from 200 yards away? If you had a camera there, sure, but from a far you can't even see what you're doing.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I don't think you can pick a lock numb, unless you've got something that lets you see inside the lock while you're working on it. If you can't either feel what you're doing or see what you're doing, I don't care whether you're inside the lock or 200 yards away, you can't do it.

Not really, when you put in the picks you're not really feeling for all the tumblers, you're more making sure you have right angles and pressure than anything else.

I suppose you might find someone who'll tell you they feel all the tumblers through their picks, but from personal experience I'd shoot the numb issue down as unnecessary.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

But you are directing it. You have the skill to hit, not the hands. That's like saying that you can fight blind-folded at no penalty because the hits aren't coming from your eyes, they're coming from your hands.

No, it's like saying that range penalties for attacks aren't based on your ability to see the target. Which I think is the case. Some penalties to attacks obviously are based on vision, but not all of them are.

Originally Posted by Gudiomen

And I argue that unless you have remote vision as well, you must take range penalties. Scratch the lockpicking example then, use any other fine motor skills that rely on eye-hand coordination. Like drawing. Can you draw without a penalty from 200 yards away? If you had a camera there, sure, but from a far you can't even see what you're doing.

Well, I can't really draw at point-blank range with my own hands, but I think some people do do a degree of drawing without looking...

Also, again, why ranged penalties? Do you have significant difficulty discerning details of a drawing at 2 yards? If the character can't draw blind, they need to be able to discern what they're drawing, but again it seems binary.

There's considerably more to shooting a target than visually discerning the target. Using TK to hit someone in the face isn't like sniping them in the face with a rifle. The rifle has be laid within a miniscule arc to actually hit. The TK just has to be positioned a yard in front of the target, and then the hit area is the same arc as it would be for an ordinary punch.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Not really, when you put in the picks you're not really feeling for all the tumblers, you're more making sure you have right angles and pressure than anything else.

I suppose you might find someone who'll tell you they feel all the tumblers through their picks, but from personal experience I'd shoot the numb issue down as unnecessary.

Eh? If you say so. My quite limited experience was that you could feel whether you were putting enough or too little pressure on the cylinder, and when one of the pins had been defeated. If that isn't needed, then feel free to telekinetically pick a lock on the underside of a desk in a coal cellar 100 yards away that you can't see, while blindfolded...assuming you can get the picks into the lock in the first place.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Using TK to hit someone in the face isn't like sniping them in the face with a rifle. The rifle has be laid within a miniscule arc to actually hit. The TK just has to be positioned a yard in front of the target, and then the hit area is the same arc as it would be for an ordinary punch.

And what's the advantage which allows you to position the TK force in the precise angle a yard in front of the target from 100 yards away?

Unless you're paying for Area Attack perhaps?

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Eh? If you say so. My quite limited experience was that you could feel whether you were putting enough or too little pressure on the cylinder, and when one of the pins had been defeated. If that isn't needed, then feel free to telekinetically pick a lock on the underside of a desk in a coal cellar 100 yards away that you can't see, while blindfolded...assuming you can get the picks into the lock in the first place.

That's the point, without Remote Viewing, or some other similar advantage, you can't do that at all because you can't in any way shape or form actually hit the lock.

[Kyra]

I don't get all the arguing... i remember a spell in Magic 3rd: Distant Blow (not sure it's in 4th as well, but i guess so) that let's you hit a far away opponent with melee attacks.. with range penalties. Seems very linear to me, and i always used such penalties in all my TK experiences and no one ever felt abused or tricked.